Why doesn't Yamaha creates a new VP1?

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knolan
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Re: Why doesn't Yamaha creates a new VP1?

Post by knolan » Fri Feb 26, 2010 2:44 am

My two penny's worth:

I own a VL1, an EX5 and a Z1. As the youtube demo show - what they offer is acoustic response to your performance, a unique and indispensable advantage. There's no doubt that the breadth controller gives the Yamaha VL synths an edge on 'acoustic-like response' over the Z1 (and actually, AFM/RCM in the SY77/SY99 are close in terms of an 'acoustic-type' response).

I agree with the poster who says that Virtual Acoustic synths have failed in the market because people will not invest the time to learn these instruments. What I disagree with is saying that VA synths are complicated - as a keyboard non-wind player, it took me a few weeks to get respectable breadth control and boy is it worth it. In fact you can achieve far greater control than heard in the Youtube video posted here - that player is a good keyboard player but he isn't putting a lot into the breadth control in this performance. You can achieve awesome breadth control (and it responds to both breadth pressure and even tonging techniques !).

Synthesis wise, the VL1 is no more complicated than a JD990 to program - and the EX5 (and VL70) are an absolute breeze - because Yamaha have done all the hard work in offering around 250 exquisite presets and THE key parameters to edit (and where, for example, you can get convincingly close from the provided reed pipes to Uilleann pipes, or Oboe to Duduk).

For me, the VL1 (and equally EX5) give an enormous advantage in documentary work - ie - an instrument that can be performed solo at the front of a mix and which can sound convincing. No sample library, even Vienna libraries, can offer such performance control and advantage. Along with the SY99, Z1, Prophecy and other software VA's the VL1 is an indispensable 'acoustic-like' tool in my arsenal.

So its a shame that Virtual Acoustic technology is seen as old, outmoded and too difficult; because IMO the opposite is the case - it remains the most developed performance music technology there is, is natural to play and offers an utterly contemporary sound. But all is not lost - this technology is used after all in Virtual Analogue synthesis, modeling effects, and now increasingly (or partially) in piano models by Roland and even Yamaha again in CP1. Even Apple Logic's Electric Piano is virtual acoustic and is absolutely incredible. I've seen Yamaha as a lost cause for the last 10 years - but the CP1 gives hope that they are beginning to see the light again in using these technologies (at least partially) in their instruments.

I really recommend adding Virtual Acoustic instruments to your setup.

Kevin.

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Re: Why doesn't Yamaha creates a new VP1?

Post by Zamise » Sat Feb 27, 2010 1:32 pm

If it hasn't been mentioned, I think the CS6x can take the VL and rest of the PLGs too?

I wish my RS7000 could take PLG cards, I'd of had and tried them all. It is a shame Yamaha hasn't pursued some of their technologies further as well as the VL. There is a lot of immediate control at your fingertips with the RS, so it would of been very interesting as a platform to have integrated the PLGs and been able to use an AN & VL as well inside of it. Have to sample that stuff, which probably is what help killed it for them too as memory became so much cheaper and so much larger on newer workstation synths. Just sample the real deal in to it. I know it is not quite the same, but for most purposes not many folks can tell the difference between a sampled flute, sax, guitar, RA or VA synth etc. sound to a physically modeled one. Its those odd and cool applications where they can go beyond the real deal that puts them in an a realm of their own rather than trying to emulate another instrument. The more perfect an emulation the more it defeats its own purpose when you can sample the real deal and have an exact match, and purists will still argue about it.

@ Balma & Stickygum - if you liked the RM1X try its successor the RS7000 ;)
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Re: Why doesn't Yamaha creates a new VP1?

Post by javelin276 » Wed Dec 23, 2020 11:21 pm

No one has posted to this topic in a while, since there hasn't been any new information on the VP1...until now. See javelinart.com. I was able to get a copy of the VP1 Editor running on an older PowerMac G3 I had sitting around. I've written a paper on the VP1 internals.

The internal model is based on a Commuted Physical Acoustic model, and includes a complete Analog Synth inside, along with most of a Sample Based Synth. With all of that capability inside, you can get some pretty bizarre sounds out of it.

I think the main reason it floundered was price. With 48 processor cores and 16 vlsi gate arrays, the hardware was very expensive. Computer processors have since caught up, it would take just one high end processor to do the same thing today.

Another major fail were the factory patches. It CAN mimic most of the VL Wave Guide Acoustic model, but only a few of the original patches used it. Most of the original patches are actually Analog in nature.

Will Yamaha create another VP1? Probably not. It's so unknown, there aren't enough of us making enough noise to even get their attention. VL might. We'll just have to wait and see.

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Re: Why doesn't Yamaha creates a new VP1?

Post by knolan » Wed Jan 13, 2021 12:47 pm

OASYS/Kronos STR-1 is an excellent polyphonic plucked-string virtual acoustic model. It really is flexible because of the depth of editing and the over all voice architecture - so even its factory presets including guitars, bass guitars, acoustic basses, clavs, harps, harpsichords - and even electric pianos - are pretty stunning. Herbi Hancock uses it a lot in his live gigs.

And you can introduce PCM samples into the model too. But it's the number and detail of EGs, LFOs, the true polyphonic-arthitecture, the excellent control surface including two joysticks and ribbon controller, and the fact that a single program can be composed of two instances of STR1, or indeed STR-1 and an instance of any of the OASYS/Kronos engines than makes it incredibly versatile.

Patches combining STR-1 and MOD-7 can be frankly breath-taking - and indeed even though I've been very interested in Nonlinear labs C15 (which really is a very special instrument), never the less, not in one demo I've heard from it did I hear sounds that could not be created on an SY99 or OASYS through STR-1 and or MOD-7.

I find it absolutely amazing that people by and large look on the Kronos like it's a souped up M1; where as in fact it contains 10 years of Korg R&D what cost $8500 to buy in the OASYS - and contains 7 stunning synthesizer engines including 3 virtual analog, the amazing CX-3 and then STR-1 and MOD-7. In essence, the Kronos is the most advanced FM synthesizer, and polyphonic virtual acoustic synthesizer ever released - and essentially nobody views it that way, or uses it. And adding to that Wavesequencing and Vector Synthesis that can be introduced into those synthesizer engines, and indeed O1W wave-shaping and Ring Modulators - within MOD-7 algorithms too ! - the sky really is the limit.

So I know Kronos - and even OASYS - do not carry the mythical gravitas of a VP1 (and I'm a VL1 owner too and adore it so would love a VP1 believe me) - but - something like a Kronos answers the call - yet - nobody cares !!! :-)


As for Yamaha - they - like Roland - continue to frustrate he h**l out of everyone these days. there are relentless calls for a faithful re-rerelease of a Jupiter 8 - but Roland simply will not oblige - meanwhile Korg have re-released the Osyssey and ARP2600; Moog have re-released the Minimoog, 55 and others; SEquential with the Rev4 and it's looking like a new OB-Xa is on the way from Sequential / Tom Oberheim (hopefully with 2 or 3 way switch to flip between OB-X, OB-Xa and OB8 !).

And then we have Korg and Roland releasing a myriad of their former amazing technologies as plugins or Boutiques.

So where the h**l is Yamaha in all of this??

They have CS / CP / SK / DX (FM / AFM / RCM) / VL / VP/ AN / and FDSP technologies sitting there - and not a peep out of them for a reissue of the CS80 or for any of their legacy of technologies even as plugins.

In my view Yamaha HAVE found their mojo again through the CP88 and YC61 - both amazing machines; but while Montage is excellent, its FM is, to me, not as good as on the SY series.

I would love to seen Yamaha release a CS88 - build on the came chassis as the CP88 - an analog or even virtual analog synth with a serious nod back to the features and capabilities of the CS80 as a performance synthesizer; and I would love to see them release a Software-Plugin suite that includes the capabilities - and Presets of:

GS1 and GS2
DX1 / 7
SY77 & 99
VL1 & VP1
EX5 (FDSP - another amazing technology)
AN

But I won't hold my breath on it - when they created yamahasynth.com a 4/5 years ago and asked for ideas for synths it looked like they were on the move again - but weekly I get their emails of user ideas for new or enhanced synthesis - and Yamaha are doing absolutely nothing about it. I simply do not get it. In every other department - Acoustic instruments of all kinds, Digital Pianos, Home Keyboards, The Silent Series, Digital Mixers - they are simply amazing as a company - but when it comes to synthesis - it's like NASA after Apollo - they let all their designers retire, and never replaced them.

But I suppose we shouldn't be surprised. Despite the fact that Yamaha developed all those amazing technologies - most of them didn't make great amounts of money for Yamaha - and they pretty rapidly abandoned each one to move onto the next one - so in recent times I've come to the conclusion that Yamaha were never committed to synthesis! I know that sounds strange given how ground-breaking and innovative every one of their technologies was - but - apart from DX/FM - there was no longevity or development in any of it - invent it (or fund others like the CCRMA to invent it), try it - even build unbelievable prototypes that were better than what they actually released - and if it doesn't sell, drop it and move on.

I mean - the CS80 and even the CP80 were each around fro just a few years - and then dropped like a lead balloon! They just don't seem to have 'synthesis' in their blood.

But today the music world is waiting with bated breath for them to release an answer to eht CS80 and to rerelease all those amazing technologies; but - nothing! Some heads need to roll in Yamaha synthesis, and some butts kicked into gear!

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Re: Why doesn't Yamaha creates a new VP1?

Post by paugui » Wed Apr 07, 2021 3:44 am

It has now been over 10 years since I started this post! :lol:

After all these years, the Korg Kronos seems to be indeed the "closest" hardware synth to a new Yamaha VP1 nowadays...
Still, it's a shame it doesn't feature feature all the algorithms available on the Korg Z1, as those can sound pretty amazing!

With Yamaha, they are better now then when I started this post, but it's indeed frustrating to see that they didn't get that much new stuff done since...

It's great that their flagship, the Montage, now focuses more on synthesis than being a regular workstation, like the Motif series did, but it's a shame they don't really have other proper synths except the Reface series (and the more basic MODX).
While I quite like the Reface series concept, I think it's a shame they didn't try to create a more "professional" looking model...

Even if they don't want to do something like the VL / VP series, they should at least try to create a proper VA synth, cause their Reface CS, despite it sounds pretty nice, has some crippling limitations that are a bit annoying...

Let's hope in 10 years from now the panorama will be better! :D

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