How old is "Vintage"?

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Mooger5
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Re: How old is "Vintage"?

Post by Mooger5 » Wed May 24, 2017 10:40 pm

Ye Olde Synthe
Herrare umanum est.

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Re: How old is "Vintage"?

Post by jxalex » Thu May 25, 2017 12:01 am

desmond wrote:
jxalex wrote:When it comes to JV1080 then sometimes the old synth is just a old synthesizer model, but not vintage, as they are just deliberately downsized model of the other models in a queue before launching "newer and better" models.
Could be. Could equally be that the JV1080 was the start of a new platform and they then "upsized" from there, creating the higher end versions with extra features and improvements at a higher price point, to cater for different people and their needs. Not everyone needs the inbuilt sampler stuff of the 5080 if they just want a MIDI module with a bunch of sounds in it. And better technology gets cheaper over time, so often it's not cost effective to use higher end components first in order to make a competitive product. These decisions are not made lightly, for sure.

Without facts, either one is just a guess, anyway...
Well, just look:
JD990 -- big graphic display,
JV1080 -- 2 line display, WHY??
JV2080 -- big graphic display, why now?

Why they had 2 line display for JV1080??
When looking back from this point then the JV2080 was NOT the "upsized" or upgraded version of the
JV1080, but the JV1080 was the downsized limited version of the JV2080 as they had in plan that one. ;-)

XV3080 -- 2 line display, again Why they do that this way again?!
(some other downsized models also)
XV5080 -- big graphic display, again, extra bank, now with 4 SRX, and sample player.

Well, by looking this way they just made XV3080 with a 2 line display to give a reason to buy XV5080 later.

Still, these models -- JV1080...XV5080 in this way share very many things in common, but it is just some options choosen out deliberately in this case.
It to me seems the same "family" or product series arrived from the drawing board at the same month when it was about the JV1080 and JV2080. (So, the trick to sell the same synth twice -- how many would have bought the JV1080 if they knew that JV2080 comes ...? Well, talking about institutions, not individuals).
Just as it is about the racks in series XV2020, XV3080, XV5050, XV5080 and their release dates are with artificial delay.

Some software companies have done the similar things that in some versions the some features are missing just in order to come back a version later and thus in order to sell almost the same product very similar product again in a short period of time.

However what later come with Roland some call that they are just "repackaging" the synthesizer.

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Re: How old is "Vintage"?

Post by madtheory » Thu May 25, 2017 5:40 pm

No. You simply haven't presented enough information above to justify your claim that Roland are tricking us. They've always been evolutionary in their products. Synths are a tiny niche in the vast world of electronics. They are at the mercy of what is happening in bigger more profitable areas such as phones and computers. Roland have to balance component cost against features. Component cost is determined by the big sellers, and those are not synths. For example, Juno 6 quickly followed by Juno 60- that was due to a drop in the price of RAM chips, not a trick. They've got it wrong sometimes, and got it right sometimes. More often what happens to Roland is that they release a product that everyone says they want, then no-one buys it. For example, V-Synth, JD-800. The biggest reason those are expensive now is because after years people realise how good they are, but there aren't enough to supply the demand. Those displays you're talking about? Hardly anyone uses those, so it depends on what obscure big money industrial application creates a demand for them. Roland can't control that. No tricks.

In-built obsolescence works great for cars, everyone buys into it.

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Re: How old is "Vintage"?

Post by blueknob » Thu May 25, 2017 5:52 pm

Mooger5 wrote:Ye Olde Synthe
:lol:

The Monks used a Gregorian Chanter 1066 at that time and The Nuns played a Prophet II who did an amazing rendition of Stairway To Heaven.

A few years prior I saw Barney Rubble do a gig playing a Dino 106.

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Re: How old is "Vintage"?

Post by madtheory » Thu May 25, 2017 8:07 pm

Image

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Re: How old is "Vintage"?

Post by desmond » Thu May 25, 2017 9:00 pm

jxalex wrote: XV3080 -- 2 line display, again Why they do that this way again?!
(some other downsized models also)
XV5080 -- big graphic display, again, extra bank, now with 4 SRX, and sample player.

Well, by looking this way they just made XV3080 with a 2 line display to give a reason to buy XV5080 later.
As far as I recall, the 3080 and 5080 were released at basically the same time, and are the same "family" of synths.

The 3080 is the cheaper version with less features, and the 5080 is the more expensive version, with more features, an improved sound engine, and some significant enhancements over the small module with features that are going to appeal to a more discerning buyer with a larger budget. They are making products to appeal to people. if you want a 128-voice module, but don't want to pay for the the larger, sexier, more fully-featured version, or can't afford it, or don't want those extra features, you pick the 3080. If you want more features, or if eg the sampler stuff is important to you, then you went for the 5080.

Would 3080 owners like a bigger screen? Sure. But either it was too costly a component to put in the 3080 and keep it at a price point that is marketable, and/or they chose to use the better feature on the more expensive machine, both because the increased costs work better on a more expensive machine, and also as a differentiator between products - the 5080 is definitely the sexier looking machine, and the nicer one to use. Perhaps on implementing the sampler feature set, they realised they needed a larger screen to convey the information because otherwise it was too unfriendly to use otherwise. Perhaps they'd planned to use the large screen on the cheaper dvice too, but it was not cost-effective to do. Or many other reasons that all go into the decision making mix.

It sounds like in your mind, it goes something like this:
- Roland design and release the 3080, and they choose to put a small screen on it, even though they could have put a bigger screen on it, the margin and component costs are negligable.
- They wait while people buy up 3080s (this artificial delay thing you keep talking about)
- After some time? they then release the 5080, which is basically the same machine, but now with the nicer feature of a big screen (and throw a few little feature upgrades as well), partly to get new sales, and partly to piss off previously-happy 3080 owners to make them feel bad about their purchase, so that, well, they'll decide to buy the 5080 as well.

- Firstly, no, they were both released at the same time, as far as I recall. (I should check that, but my memory and VSE tells me they were both around 2000.)

- Secondly, there are significant differences between the two, not least including a better sounding engine on the 5080, full sample support - but both modules are clearly based on the same core platform tech, but intended for different users/budgets/use cases, given the user a choice of where their money goes.

- Thirdly - it makes no business sense at all to delay a better product just because you want to make existing customers who purchased the "first" one some months earlier feel like it was a bad purchase decision. Those customers are just going to b pissed off at the manufacturer and not buy their products in the future.

It just seems to me in a lot of these cases that you have a cynical view of the world and by defacto apply that to everything you see, whether the facts or evidence support your view or not.

Now - I'm not saying you are generally *wrong* - because I also don't have facts to make a clear decision one way or another. I certainly don't have such a cynical world view as you appear to have, and I'm sure there is *some* truth in what you say, as these things all go into the design and decision making process. But without being in the room at the time, I can't assume or ascribe reasons to any given decisions and state them as fact.

It all comes down to companies wanting to make products that people want to buy. Sometimes they do well with this, other times less so. And yes, companies sometimes hold back features to best deploy them in a manner which benefits the company, for a variety of reasons. You choose to see this as "ripping off" the consumer, I don't. And there we'll have to disagree, as I don't really want to spend any more time on this...

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Re: How old is "Vintage"?

Post by Tekhed66 » Fri May 26, 2017 3:18 am

An interesting dissertation and discussion on the Roland series...

Hmmm ... I think we need to get a few sheep dogs in here to round up the flock.

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Re: How old is "Vintage"?

Post by jxalex » Fri May 26, 2017 4:03 am

desmond wrote:
jxalex wrote: XV3080 -- 2 line display, again Why they do that this way again?!
(some other downsized models also)
XV5080 -- big graphic display, again, extra bank, now with 4 SRX, and sample player.

Well, by looking this way they just made XV3080 with a 2 line display to give a reason to buy XV5080 later.
As far as I recall, the 3080 and 5080 were released at basically the same time, and are the same "family" of synths.
yes, while the 3080 was reviewed then it was known that the 5080 comes too. That makes sense if they really were released at the same time. Interesting. Yes.

Still, between the JV1080 and JV2080 there were ca 2 years and they are like the same series as well -- their differences are minimal besides large screen and extra effect insert. The price difference -- one was 1100GBP and another was ca 1400GBP. ANd back then it was the actual question that does these couple differences in a new model justifies the upgrade, or not.


My point was that what to see as a vintage and not every old enough model is a vintage (cynical or not ).
on some models the limitations do not make a vintage item but just a old model of the certain same series of the same technology as there havent been not so much breakthrough as something is no longer available or no longer produced.
This is it.

Whereas on some synths it can be said "well, on those old times there were such large VFD displays, all was done with 2 VFD lines and rotary encoders were with hall sensor and now this kind of technology details are not produced anymore nowhere and some other obscure tricks were used, which is now done in a different way."

The similar thing cant be said to JV1080 in comparison to XV5080 or even Integra 7 as they are still the same technology whatever if just having faster CPU and more memory and new algorithms. Cynical or not.
(Well for example certainly in future we will see the vintage synths are those which still use the battery for user presets memory retention, just as the use of screwdriver for tuning the synthesizer).

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Re: How old is "Vintage"?

Post by blueknob » Fri May 26, 2017 7:53 am

:shock: madtheory! And there's me thinking it was a Prophet II! :roll:

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Re: How old is "Vintage"?

Post by meatballfulton » Fri May 26, 2017 1:45 pm

As an electrical engineer, let me state that the actual cost of a component to the mfr translates into a much higher cost to the customer, usually $10 for every $1 increase. This is largely due to the overhead internal to the mfr: inventory, parts specification and qualification, etc. Sometimes components go out of production and the mfr has to switch, other times improved components become available at lower prices. I can tell you that in 36 years in the industry I was never once told to not include a feature so it could be offered in a future product instead. Rather, features might be removed because they cost too much, they weren't working properly or there were too many problems with the yields of the custom semiconductors.

I am not that familiar with Roland gear but do know a fair amount about the Yamaha Motif series. Yamaha introduced a new model every 3-5 years. Each one had increased ROM, possible by falling memory prices. The original model used older memory cards that maxxed out at 64MB, had SmartMedia card storage and a SCSI port for hard drives. The ES which followed used a different type of memory card allowing up to 1GB of RAM, retained the SmartMedia slot for backwards compatibility but a USB replaced the SCSI port. The XS dropped the now-obsolete SmartMedia slot, allowed addressing up to 2GB of RAM, and dropped support for the aging PLG add on cards. The XF dropped internal RAM expansion for 128MB of internal RAM and slots for flash memory crads supporting up to 2GB of non-volatile storage. Each iteration had significant improvements as well as changes due to obsoleted technologies.
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Re: How old is "Vintage"?

Post by jxalex » Fri May 26, 2017 4:54 pm

meatballfulton wrote: ...
I can tell you that in 36 years in the industry I was never once told to not include a feature so it could be offered in a future product instead.
...
I assume You talk about the synthesizer industry? In this case yes it can be quite peaceful.

(becouse in the electronic industry about cell phones, the experience is much of the opposite end and such tricks -- holding back features for future use, no rush with newer model launch -- were practiced very keenly during 2004-2010 atleast.)

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Re: How old is "Vintage"?

Post by meatballfulton » Fri May 26, 2017 5:44 pm

meatballfulton wrote:Rather, features might be removed because they cost too much, they weren't working properly or there were too many problems with the yields of the custom semiconductors.
In the case of products where features are largely implemented in software, it's not uncommon to ship devices and enable the features later on once they are fully debugged. I've seen this many times, again referencing the Yamaha Motif series there have been OS upgrades adding functionality like support for USB wi-fi adapters, additional FX algorithms, the ability to record stereo audio to USB devices and even using a network connection (wi-fi or Ethernet) to alert you to OS updates.
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Re: How old is "Vintage"?

Post by megamanx » Sat May 27, 2017 6:34 pm

Vintage is just a nice way of saying old. Would you rather play a vintage synth, or an old synth? Would you rather wear vintage shoes or old shoes? There is no real time line or age requirement to make something vintage. The website is called vintage synth explorer because if it was called old synth explorer, well it just sounds negative.

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Re: How old is "Vintage"?

Post by blueknob » Sat May 27, 2017 9:28 pm

megamanx wrote:Vintage is just a nice way of saying old. Would you rather play a vintage synth, or an old synth? Would you rather wear vintage shoes or old shoes? ....
Interesting, so I guess that means we have vintage people rather than old people! :lol:

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Re: How old is "Vintage"?

Post by CS_TBL » Sun May 28, 2017 8:05 am

So, Neanderthals are vintage humans!
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