53 Minute comparison - Minimoog and Behringer Model D

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53 Minute comparison - Minimoog and Behringer Model D

Post by Broadwave » Thu Aug 03, 2017 3:34 pm

This is the kind of comparison I've been waiting for - The Behringer sounds great considering it's being compared to a 45 year old Minimoog. Remember there's no component degeneration and it's calibrated correctly. Jareth even states that it SHOULD be compared to the latest (and now discontinued) revision.

[bbvideo]<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/3pRiUSf_QFw?ecver=1" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>[/bbvideo]

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Re: 53 Minute comparison - Minimoog and Behringer Model D

Post by HideawayStudio » Thu Aug 03, 2017 6:44 pm

Jareth has put a great video together there.

I have to say as a classic Minimoog owner, a sound designer and an electronic engineer I am impressed.

Considering the price of this thing, this little beast sounds remarkably similar to the original!!

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Re: 53 Minute comparison - Minimoog and Behringer Model D

Post by Rokk » Fri Aug 04, 2017 12:50 pm

I think the D sounds very good, but it does lack the bottom end of Model D, which is quite obvious when you listen to this comparison with a good sub. Other than this the differences are very subtle.

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Re: 53 Minute comparison - Minimoog and Behringer Model D

Post by meatballfulton » Fri Aug 04, 2017 1:35 pm

The fat bottom Moogs are known for has always puzzled me as an electrical engineer. How do you design oscillators so that the lower harmonics are stronger than they actually should be in a "perfect" waveform?

For $300 that thing sounds incredible. Nice filter.
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Re: 53 Minute comparison - Minimoog and Behringer Model D

Post by Broadwave » Fri Aug 04, 2017 5:02 pm

meatballfulton wrote:The fat bottom Moogs are known for has always puzzled me as an electrical engineer. How do you design oscillators so that the lower harmonics are stronger than they actually should be in a "perfect" waveform?
It's annoyed the heck out of me too - I think it's just the interaction of several VCOs that's "perceived" as a fat bottom end - I can't tell the difference when he plays a single waveform from either synth. If you compare two "perfect" sawtooths, you can't have one with a louder fundamental frequency, because it'll no longer be a perfect sawtooth :o But everyone's ears are different, we don't always hear the same thing as others.

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Re: 53 Minute comparison - Minimoog and Behringer Model D

Post by madtheory » Fri Aug 04, 2017 5:08 pm

The bottom end is not a frequency thing, it's a dynamics thing. That's why it's not audible with a single waveform :) The VCA envelope in the Mini is kinda clipped. The shape is like what happens with compression. So it sounds punchy. The oscillotors beat in a fairly complex way because they're not stable, and you can easily overdrive the audio into the VCA as well. All of those conspire to make it "fat". But you'll get punchy bass with one osc and no overdrive. So it's mainly the envelope.

So ya it's a perception thing, mixed with a little knowlwdge being a dangerous thing. We attribute the bass to frequency because that's the simplest explanation. But like most things in life, it's a tad more complex :)

I'd be very skeptical about Rokk's claim with the sub. Any good headphones can easily produce sound down to 20Hz. If it was a blind listening test I think it would be a safe bet that no-one could tell the difference.

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Re: 53 Minute comparison - Minimoog and Behringer Model D

Post by Automatic Gainsay » Fri Aug 04, 2017 10:20 pm

The Minimoog's sawtooth isn't perfect!
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Re: 53 Minute comparison - Minimoog and Behringer Model D

Post by Rokk » Fri Aug 04, 2017 10:37 pm

madtheory wrote:The bottom end is not a frequency thing, it's a dynamics thing. That's why it's not audible with a single waveform :) The VCA envelope in the Mini is kinda clipped. The shape is like what happens with compression. So it sounds punchy. The oscillotors beat in a fairly complex way because they're not stable, and you can easily overdrive the audio into the VCA as well. All of those conspire to make it "fat". But you'll get punchy bass with one osc and no overdrive. So it's mainly the envelope.

So ya it's a perception thing, mixed with a little knowlwdge being a dangerous thing. We attribute the bass to frequency because that's the simplest explanation. But like most things in life, it's a tad more complex :)

I'd be very skeptical about Rokk's claim with the sub. Any good headphones can easily produce sound down to 20Hz. If it was a blind listening test I think it would be a safe bet that no-one could tell the difference.
I just recorded the youtube audio into my DAW and I have to report that there is an interesting thing going on with the waveforms. Some waveforms are louder on Model D while some are louder on the D. So it might be that this is playing tricks on us. I definitely perceive the D to be a bit brighter, though, not as creamy so to say, but it still sounds very nice.
As for the sub, you can't really feel the sub 50Hz frequencies on any headphones the way you feel it with a good sub. Period. When I listen to this comparison with headphones (Beyerdynamic DT770 pro, that go down to 5Hz) I don't hear the difference in lower frequencies, while on monitors with a sub I do feel the difference. Nevertheless, it is nothing a bit of low end boost with a nice EQ can solve.

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Re: 53 Minute comparison - Minimoog and Behringer Model D

Post by blueknob » Sat Aug 05, 2017 8:08 am

Guys cut the academic theorising knob twidding... all that matters is.. when can I get one! :lol:

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Re: 53 Minute comparison - Minimoog and Behringer Model D

Post by Broadwave » Sat Aug 05, 2017 8:57 am

Automatic Gainsay wrote:The Minimoog's sawtooth isn't perfect!
...and praise the lord that it isn't ;) I'm almost afraid to ask what you think of the Behringer, are you reserving judgement until you've got your mitts on one?

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Re: 53 Minute comparison - Minimoog and Behringer Model D

Post by HideawayStudio » Sat Aug 05, 2017 11:49 am

Broadwave wrote:
Automatic Gainsay wrote:The Minimoog's sawtooth isn't perfect!
...and praise the lord that it isn't ;) I'm almost afraid to ask what you think of the Behringer, are you reserving judgement until you've got your mitts on one?
Its not perfect on either instrument, and yes, thank heck it isn't.

Mind you the sawthooth isn't even "perfect" on the DK Synergy.. and that's digital! :mrgreen:

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Re: 53 Minute comparison - Minimoog and Behringer Model D

Post by Solderman » Thu Aug 10, 2017 4:37 pm

I mentioned on social media that in the video, I noticed right off that the D does not sound vintage in a rather obvious way. Think of this as sounding more harsh and flat, with less emphasis on the fundamental frequency. Also easily noticed the self-oscillating resonance on the D is modulated by the signal, whereas it is a constant, uninterrupted tone on the original. As was pointed out, some of the waveforms, while sounding similar, vary in brightness or loudness between each machine. But overall, assuming it is a reliable design, you're getting alot for the selling price, so should be a worthwhile purchase for those who are interested.
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Re: 53 Minute comparison - Minimoog and Behringer Model D

Post by belltones » Mon Aug 14, 2017 6:53 pm

One thing I think that is overlooked in the discussion that follows these sorts of comparisons as well is calibration. I know Jareth is an experienced synth tech, and I have no doubt that his Minimoog is calibrated correctly. However, there can be slight variations within the range of what qualifies as a totally a correct calibration, and while the Behringer is presumably calibrated to their factory standards, it's quite possible that if it was what someone wanted, it could be calibrated a little differently to sound more like the Minimoog... or even, this particular Minimoog. Every Minimoog can't be expected to sound the same, and every Behringer D can't be expected to sound the same, and these tiny tiny variations in VCA behavior and frequency response are just the kind of things that are likely to always vary.

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