External vs internal MIDI

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meatballfulton
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Re: External vs internal MIDI

Post by meatballfulton » Tue Oct 09, 2018 12:15 pm

My setup allows me to record with a buffer size of 64 so neither MIDI or audio latency is noticeable to me. I never bother to use direct monitoring.

Keeping the buffer size the same but increasing the sample rate (say go from 44.1k to 192k) also reduces latency.
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Re: External vs internal MIDI

Post by Zamise » Tue Oct 09, 2018 9:10 pm

1024 buffer size is working best for me, I wish I could go higher. My first thought was to lower it too, I put it at 16 first and that really sucked. For the sample rate, I would think a lower sample rate would be better, not higher too, what? I will have to try the higher sample rate next, if that speeds it up some more then that may be able to keep me from having to re-sample and editing start points. That would be nice as re-sampling takes a lot of time to do, is not as dynamic, and I can't watch the frames of 3d morphing waveform in Serum while it plays.
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Re: External vs internal MIDI

Post by HUBA » Tue Oct 09, 2018 9:36 pm

Zamise wrote:For the sample rate, I would think a lower sample rate would be better, not higher too, what?
No that doesn't sound right.

16 is pretty low. Too low buffer size will get you noise, clicks and pops.

You might need a faster computer

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Re: External vs internal MIDI

Post by Zamise » Tue Oct 09, 2018 9:53 pm

16 was just dog slow, like almost a half second behind. Are you sure you don't have it backwards? This is for the ASIO driver. The article I posted about optimizing also claims 1024 is a good buffer size for speed, you need a faster compute to run it, and the stablity is more questionable at higher amounts. A lower sample rate like 44.1khz would also seem better rather than higher. I'm not at my setup to confirm anything right now.
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Re: External vs internal MIDI

Post by meatballfulton » Tue Oct 09, 2018 10:07 pm

The buffer size is the number of samples delayed. Higher bit rates (i.e. 96, 192, etc.) have shorter sample times so the latency is less at an identical buffer setting compared to a lower bit rate.

At any given buffer size:

48k has 10% less latency than 44.1k

96k has 50% less latency than 48k

192k has 50% less latency than 96k

...and so on.

When latency is a problem, like playing an instrument live, you should always use the smallest buffer size that works without pops and clicks in your setup. In my setup it's 64 samples at 44.1k. I have no idea what that is in milliseconds, I just know I don't perceive any lag.

If you are doing something where latency does not matter, like mixing, it's fine to use a larger buffer size.
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Re: External vs internal MIDI

Post by Zamise » Tue Oct 09, 2018 11:24 pm

[edit] I am loosing my marbles. buffer size/sample rate = latency.
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Re: External vs internal MIDI

Post by madtheory » Wed Oct 10, 2018 12:35 pm

No meatballfulton is absolutely correct. Lower buffer and/ or higher sample rate gives lower latency. But you need a fast processor to do that without getting clicks and pops.
meatballfulton wrote:In my setup it's 64 samples at 44.1k.
Sorry yes this is what I use as well (not 128 as I said earlier).

I mix up numbers a lot too. Hey maybe you have dyscalculia? I only discovered I have it a few years ago. Explained a lot :lol:

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Re: External vs internal MIDI

Post by Zamise » Wed Oct 10, 2018 3:54 pm

Dyscalculia would explain a lot, or just stupid heh. I have not yet tested higher sample rates on my setup, only 44.1khz and 96 and I was getting contrary results. 16 buffer was giving me a lot of start delay but was playing fine and not breaking up, 1024 was lagging less but not a significant amount compared to the buffer sizes. I will have to do some retesting and try higher sample rates then to see if that will speed things up. Anyhow, I guess I was thinking completely opposite and it seems counter intuitive to me. It actually makes me hopeful that I may find a better setting since I didn't try the higher sample rates yet.
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Re: External vs internal MIDI

Post by Zamise » Sat Oct 27, 2018 2:34 am

Hey VSEF Guys,

Reporting more results back after some more testing. And, I am telling you guys that with at least my setup, the smaller the sample rate and the larger the buffer size the less midi latency/delay I am getting, which is the complete opposite of what supposed to be happening.

I'd like to think the speeds of my setup is at least on par with a year 2018 setup, only thing I think might be holding me back is the usb cable from my interface to my laptop, but anyhow I feel like this utter strangeness.

I am doing my best at 1024buff/44.1khz w Focusrite 2i4 ASIO. There is still slightly noticeable delay guessing 10 to 20 milliseconds, however going the opposite direction 16buff/96khz is almost a whole second delay or maybe worse with no glitching or clicking just slow as s**t response.

Perhaps it is my host (VSTHost) that is just awful or backwards, however I am sort of at a loss at how to make my setup "instant". It isn't bad at what I think is my best setting, however I am under the impression that re-sampling and editing start points etc., of phrases may be the best tho limited way to go about reducing plugin latency/lag, however you may do that, most modern computer DAWs I believe will have real time pitch/time stretching for sampled phrases, my RS7000 does not so dif pitches will throw off bpm/tempo.

I do have a top secret RS function that I will call auto-slicing with tails, my RS buddies will know what I am talking about ;)

Short story is, you guys lied to me, everyone is wrong, this buffer slash sample rate s**t is bullshit, or my setup is either awesome x100 or s**t -100, prob average 2018 setup tech.

Appreciate you guys and the this forum, not trying to disrespect anyone, I am just getting conflicting results, and mostly kind of new at softsyths plugins for live use. I kind of feel weird about mentioning this stuff to you guys because I built a kickass vst plugin several years back that resembles an RS7000.

Zam
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Re: External vs internal MIDI

Post by meatballfulton » Sat Oct 27, 2018 1:54 pm

Zamise wrote:I am doing my best at 1024buff/44.1khz w Focusrite 2i4 ASIO.
Not very helpful, but you have something seriously wrong. With a 12 year old Celeron powered XP laptop, I was able to get down to a 128 buffer at 44.1 with a low-end M-Audio interface using ASIO4All (the factory drivers sucked). Your Focusrite should be able to match that if not easily better it on a newer machine.
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Re: External vs internal MIDI

Post by Zamise » Sat Nov 03, 2018 1:39 am

Hey thanks MBF. Doing some more testing right now and noticing that things get even more freaky if I am adjusting the buffers and rates while not restarting any software or rebooting. It does seem to go in the opposite direction or the right direction with slower and faster lag to what supposed to be happening, however it does start to glitch out after few changes to the ASIO settings and getting major lags no matter what the settings, sometimes so bad I think it is not even playing until many seconds after, so it doesn't seem like it is playing but it is just taking forever to catch up. I have before been rebooting after every change to the ASIO settings which produces no glitchyness but lag is going opposite of what supposed to be expected. I would think rebooting would be good, and it is, but damn if everything still behaving strangely either way. I think I seen a newer focusrite ASIO driver, gona try it...
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Re: External vs internal MIDI

Post by madtheory » Mon Nov 05, 2018 8:14 pm

If the driver update doesn't help, contact Focusrite support they're great.

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