With hybrids all the rage, why not CS/DX , Juno/JD etc ?

Discussions about anything analog, digital, MIDI, synth technology, techniques, theories and more.

Postby megawatt » Wed Mar 07, 2007 10:52 pm

Not to hijack the thread regarding the tube in the EMX....

It's great in small doses. It effects the sound very much (some would say in a musical way but thats subjective).

It's not just marketing - it's a feature that's appreciated. I'd rather have it there then not. I'm constantly suprised by the blue beast as it has it's own sound and is capable of a wide variety of tones - but I don't consider it a hybrid though it does have a lot of types of synthesis represented - it's just that the parameters are limited.

But back to hybrids...
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Postby Hove portamento overdrive » Wed Mar 07, 2007 11:16 pm

on the va thing, you do get the feeling the hardware va market ( not plug ins etc) is coming to the end of a phase, after more than 10 years.
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Postby Andy_X69 » Thu Mar 08, 2007 9:26 am

Dustin wrote:They still have a long way to go in the accuracy department.


Oh the Alesis Ion is extremely accurate. Korg Radias isnt but it has excellent anti-aliasing... There is also that dynamic convolution technology the Focusrite (owners of Novation) are getting into....

I think the gap between digital and analog has shrunk a lot recently. The technologies Ive mentioned have the potential to create evolutionary advances in modelling synthesis.
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Postby Hove portamento overdrive » Thu Mar 08, 2007 9:37 am

it can get subjective with vas - i like the ion but don't know that I agree on it being accurate. One thing that I think is true is with the explosion of emulation-softsynths people are looking for something new and more different from their hardware synths now, as a reason to have them when its so easy to go 'soft', and from what I gather that's reflected in sales of hardware va synths, after 10 years.
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Postby DIGITAL SCREAMS » Thu Mar 08, 2007 6:30 pm

GeneralBigbag wrote:Because it's getting more accurate in emulating analog circuitry?


This maybe true, but to my ears they will never get rid of the digital sheen a VA/softsynth puts out. Have you ever compared the raw sound of an analog to a Virtual through a decent pair of speakers? Its eye opening to say the least. I'd be interested to hear your opinion on this.

Its ironic manufacturers today hack on about 'inspiration', 'creativity' and 'revolutionary technology' when their gear is fundementally uninspiring to use (in terms of sound and UI) and whats so revolutionary about porting analog into the digital domain?

GeneralBigbag wrote:Because it's getting cheaper?


They could give it away free...... but I still wouldnt use it. There is something to be said about making financial sacrifices....

GeneralBigbag wrote:Becaues there's a proven demand?


Does demand mean its good? There is alot of demand for cheap McDonalds food....

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Postby gs » Thu Mar 08, 2007 8:08 pm

DIGITAL SCREAMS wrote:[.........] to my ears they will never get rid of the digital sheen a VA/softsynth puts out. Have you ever compared the raw sound of an analog to a Virtual through a decent pair of speakers? Its eye opening to say the least. [...........]


You are absolutely correct how eye-opening the different between RA and VA is..... (that is) until you record your analog synth digitally, mix it in with other stuff, master it digitally, and burn a CD. Then, the difference isn't quite so noticeable to average ears (average ears of people that you want to buy your CDs, don't you?).

That's a lot different from plugging your analog directly into an amp/PA system and hearing it live. In most cases for practical studio work, you can get by with VA, and if you also have a lot of FX in your studio, you can warm/saturate/distort the sounds of VAs so they do come out sounding pretty raw. Many pro's like Aphex Twin or BT are going all software these days. I think they are fairly professional enough to know what sounds good and what doesn't for their needs.

In live situations, I can see the need for an analog or two, espeically an RA monosynth that will cut through the guitarist's distortion (like the old Minimoog had the reputation for doing). And yes the difference is noticeable in live situations.

Yet ironically, most synthesists do not want to bring any of their analog gear to gigs because of the expense and unreliability factor. :? Most talk on this forum seems to focus on using analog in the studio, which is an area I would think I could get away with using VA and software much more.
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Postby DIGITAL SCREAMS » Thu Mar 08, 2007 8:48 pm

gs wrote:You are absolutely correct how eye-opening the different between RA and VA is..... (that is) until you record your analog synth digitally, mix it in with other stuff, master it digitally, and burn a CD. Then, the difference isn't quite so noticeable to average ears (average ears of people that you want to buy your CDs, don't you?).


Yes, I agree 90% with that statement. Analogs in a live setting kick arse more so than when recorded and then heavily effected. Of course, some of the true analog characteristics prevail but its a bit less noticable.

gs wrote:Many pro's like Aphex Twin or BT are going all software these days. I think they are fairly professional enough to know what sounds good and what doesn't for their needs.


'Electronica star BT, who'd been using a PEK on the soundtrack to the film Stealth, dropped me a line to say, "This thing reminds me why soft synths still suck and analog still rules the world."' Taken from DSI website http://www.davesmithinstruments.com/other/news.html

LOL sorry but i had too :wink:

Overall, I think your rational is correct, its just that I see things slightly differently.

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Postby Hove portamento overdrive » Thu Mar 08, 2007 10:34 pm

on a point about way back about the dw-8000 and famous users, I think Keith Emerson used one.
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Postby steveman » Fri Mar 09, 2007 12:21 am

It struck me that with all the money they spent developing the VCOs and filters for the Andromeda, they'd try and get a bit of mileage out of them. How about at laest a beefed up Fusion, or Ion - with the Andromeda filters?

On RA vs VA, I'm sure synth geeks can spot the difference a mile away, but for everyone else VA is more than good enough.
Remember in the late 70s & early 80s Prophets & Oberheims were being generally being bought by keyboard players, NOT just synth players, as that was the only way of getting certain sounds easily. Nowadays a rompler will get keyboard players pretty much everything they need. Only the hardcore synth geeks care about RA vs VA, and there's a lot less around than you may think. Look across all the music sites and you'll find the same people posting across all of them.
There may be a loss of interest in VAs, but I don't think this means a move back to analogue any time soon, more likely a move further into software.
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Postby GeneralBigbag » Fri Mar 09, 2007 1:40 am

DIGITAL SCREAMS wrote:
GeneralBigbag wrote:Becaues there's a proven demand?


Does demand mean its good? There is alot of demand for cheap McDonalds food....

DS


This wasn't a question of whether or not it's good, it's a question of whether VA is on it's last legs.

Anyway, I suspect that in 10 years a VA will be so close to the real thing, it would take spectral analysis to tell them apart.
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Postby MitchK1989 » Fri Mar 09, 2007 1:42 am

bah. Plenty of people like VAs for reasons other than emulating analogs. A synth that sounds good sounds good whether it sounds "analog" or not. Not all of us want to sound like the 70s...
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Postby Hove portamento overdrive » Sat Mar 10, 2007 6:42 pm

[/quote]

Anyway, I suspect that in 10 years a VA will be so close to the real thing, it would take spectral analysis to tell them apart.[/quote]

We're still a long way from that kind of possibility, I think.

I've got a feeling that if the evolvers end up selling something like 15,000 or 20,000 other firms will definitely be tempted to try something similar. If they get a long way beyond the sales that other analog niche stuff has had so far, other firms will watch carefully ; they started as a tiny outfit and seem to be expanding all the time.
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Postby jko » Tue Mar 13, 2007 11:03 am

I wonder whether Clavia and Access might follow the waldorf example with analog filters.
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Postby gs » Tue Mar 13, 2007 4:32 pm

DIGITAL SCREAMS wrote:'Electronica star BT, who'd been using a PEK on the soundtrack to the film Stealth, dropped me a line to say, "This thing reminds me why soft synths still suck and analog still rules the world."' Taken from DSI website http://www.davesmithinstruments.com/other/news.html


Yeah, that's an endorsement, right? :roll: How seriously am I supposed to take it? Most of these artists say things out of both sides of their mouth depending on who's paying them at any given moment. Do a search, I'm sure he as been credited as saying he's going "all software" in a different quote when he was pimping for some software synths.

EDIT: Okay I see the irony in my statement above! :oops: I guess I shouldn't have believed BT the first place!
Last edited by gs on Tue Mar 13, 2007 4:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby gs » Tue Mar 13, 2007 4:34 pm

Hove portamento overdrive wrote:on a point about way back about the dw-8000 and famous users, I think Keith Emerson used one.


Yes, Keith not only used one back in the 80s but Julian Colbeck in Keyfax cites him as being quite an aficionado of the synth. (He used mainly the EX8000 rack module though.)
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