Too much reverb?

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sustain
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Too much reverb?

Post by sustain » Sat Aug 11, 2007 12:10 pm

I never really noticed with headphones, but in my music I think I must have too much reverb applied, because through loud speakers, a loud resonating sine wave can be heard. How can I avoid that? Apply less of what, in reverb? I can't hear the dominant frequency with headphones. :?

I think it may be because of too much of the following:

Decay, Mix or Diffusion. Help?

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Post by JSRockit » Sat Aug 11, 2007 1:57 pm

Do you use monitors to hear your music as well? Headphones are notorious for not being accurate in regards to reverb...meaning you'll add way too much if you only use headphones.
Last edited by JSRockit on Sat Aug 11, 2007 2:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Too much reverb?

Post by differentbydesign » Sat Aug 11, 2007 2:03 pm

sustain wrote:I never really noticed with headphones, but in my music I think I must have too much reverb applied, because through loud speakers, a loud resonating sine wave can be heard. How can I avoid that? Apply less of what, in reverb? I can't hear the dominant frequency with headphones. :?

I think it may be because of too much of the following:

Decay, Mix or Diffusion. Help?
Hi

It would help a lot to have an example of what you are talking about to hear for ourselves. It would also help to hnow what king of reverb you had applied to what tracks in what ammount too.

If you cant hear it in headphones it sounds like the acoustics of the listening environment might be the source of the problem you may have a resonant standing wave set up and that is what you are hearing.

Rgds

Ross
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Post by WDW » Sat Aug 11, 2007 2:31 pm

This belongs in Sound Production.

WD

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Re: Too much reverb?

Post by Yoozer » Sat Aug 11, 2007 3:46 pm

sustain wrote: because through loud speakers, a loud resonating sine wave can be heard.
[...]
I think it may be because of too much of the following:

Decay, Mix or Diffusion. Help?
Just do the following:

- put an equalizer on the track
- solo the track
- then, cut (not boost) as much as you can as long as you don't hear anything changing in the sound. Once you hear a change, dial the EQ back to the position where the change wasn't apparent.
- do this for both high and low frequencies so you put a non-resonant band pass filter on every channel
- repeat this per track, just auditioning a single one every time.

Main culprits could be sampled loops that are sped up or slowed down. A sinewave is nothing but a peak in the range of harmonics, so you have instruments fighting eachother for the same frequency range.
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Post by hageir » Sat Aug 11, 2007 8:47 pm

quick question: what reverb unit do you have?
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Post by i_watch_stars » Sat Aug 11, 2007 10:28 pm

It could be a multitude of things going on here, but my guess is that you are hearing your room.

Most smaller rooms have a definite "flutter" and some have noticable long verb if they are big enough. You obviously can't hear this effect when you have headphones on. Actually it is quite the opposite in my experience; headphones tend to exaggerate the reverb effects you put in the music because you are taking out the sound of the room.

As far as a "loud resonating sine wave"...could you describe this a bit more? This doesn't sound like reverb to me....

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I thought headphones were better...

Post by sustain » Sun Aug 12, 2007 2:20 am

JSRockit wrote:Do you use monitors to hear your music as well? Headphones are notorious for not being accurate in regards to reverb...meaning you'll add way too much if you only use headphones.
(Knowing myself, I always add too much of everything anyway... :oops:)

No, I don't have monitors, I've played this track through big old stereo speakers and tiny narrow PC speakers, and both surprisingly display this loud humming noise. I never knew that about headphones - I actually thought headphones represent the best sound, specifically because there is no sound interference in its environment. I have a pair of Sennheiser HD202s, which I think are pretty awesome for me, but are probably average in comparison to the better studio models.

Speaking of stereo speakers, is it true they all have some kind of built in ('untweakable') sound enhancer, unlike monitors?
hageir wrote:quick question: what reverb unit do you have?
differentbydesign wrote: It would also help to hnow what king of reverb you had applied to what tracks in what ammount too.
Karma Reverb is the free softsynth I use, due to my tight budget. http://karmafx.net/

Well, I think I pretty much, maxed out the reverb, and set it to 50-60% volume, but only on one track. :lol:
Yoozer wrote: Just do the following:

- put an equalizer on the track
- solo the track
- then, cut (not boost) as much as you can as long as you don't hear anything changing in the sound. Once you hear a change, dial the EQ back to the position where the change wasn't apparent.
- do this for both high and low frequencies so you put a non-resonant band pass filter on every channel
- repeat this per track, just auditioning a single one every time.

Main culprits could be sampled loops that are sped up or slowed down. A sinewave is nothing but a peak in the range of harmonics, so you have instruments fighting eachother for the same frequency range.
Thanks Yoozer. Harmonics can be found by (visually) analyzing the frequency spectrum, right? So I'm guessing you'd watch all the meters in high resolution. :?
i_watch_stars wrote: As far as a "loud resonating sine wave"...could you describe this a bit more? This doesn't sound like reverb to me....
Well, the second time I played it out loud for a change, I noticed when I left the room, and the peak or main frequency was obvious over the actual music. The sound reminded me of high resonance in filters, so I concluded it was a sine wave.

I should have tried out EQ!

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Re: I thought headphones were better...

Post by gd » Sun Aug 12, 2007 4:16 am

"I actually thought headphones represent the best sound, specifically because there is no sound interference in its environment. I have a pair of Sennheiser HD202s, which I think are pretty awesome for me, but are probably average in comparison to the better studio models".

more and more of the top studios are using very inexpensive headphones (MoreMe @ $30 US) for tracking. Joss Stone and her band used them on their last cd. I just ordered a pair and got them the other day - they are rock solid and very flat sounding. I have Sony, AKG 240, and Senn hd280 and they all sound great but these inexpensive MoreMe's sound much closer to what I hear out of the PA.
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Re: I thought headphones were better...

Post by i_watch_stars » Sun Aug 12, 2007 4:56 am

gd wrote:"I actually thought headphones represent the best sound, specifically because there is no sound interference in its environment. I have a pair of Sennheiser HD202s, which I think are pretty awesome for me, but are probably average in comparison to the better studio models".

more and more of the top studios are using very inexpensive headphones (MoreMe @ $30 US) for tracking. Joss Stone and her band used them on their last cd. I just ordered a pair and got them the other day - they are rock solid and very flat sounding. I have Sony, AKG 240, and Senn hd280 and they all sound great but these inexpensive MoreMe's sound much closer to what I hear out of the PA.
Studios use headphones for line checks and individual monitoring, never to mix or master on exclusively. Do so at your own music's peril.

Well, the second time I played it out loud for a change, I noticed when I left the room, and the peak or main frequency was obvious over the actual music. The sound reminded me of high resonance in filters, so I concluded it was a sine wave.

I should have tried out EQ!
Umm...what? I don't know what the h**l that is but I doubt it is any normal functioning of the reverb, unless it is some kind of infinite decay or some bizarre feedback loop. Obviously if it is there on the phones, its not your speakers' problem. Honestly, people here are just shooting their mouths off because it could be a million things at this point. Could you post an mp3 or wav file of this sound?

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Re: I thought headphones were better...

Post by Altitude » Sun Aug 12, 2007 3:14 pm

gd wrote:"I actually thought headphones represent the best sound, specifically because there is no sound interference in its environment. I have a pair of Sennheiser HD202s, which I think are pretty awesome for me, but are probably average in comparison to the better studio models".
And that is why your mixes are going to be screwed up.Human hearing does not work that way where one ear is completely isolated form the other. There is a TON of interaction between your two ears when hearing the same sound in open air and I suspect the main part of the problem of the original poster was that he did mix it on cans which masked the problem completely
i_watch_stars wrote: Studios use headphones for line checks and individual monitoring, never to mix or master on exclusively. Do so at your own music's peril.

Exactly right, you can track all you want with cans, but the moment you need to do anything to do with the stereo field, you hang them up and do it on monitors

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Re: I thought headphones were better...

Post by gd » Sun Aug 12, 2007 6:55 pm

Altitude wrote:
gd wrote:"I actually thought headphones represent the best sound, specifically because there is no sound interference in its environment. I have a pair of Sennheiser HD202s, which I think are pretty awesome for me, but are probably average in comparison to the better studio models".
i_watch_stars wrote: Studios use headphones for line checks and individual monitoring, never to mix or master on exclusively. Do so at your own music's peril.

Exactly right, you can track all you want with cans, but the moment you need to do anything to do with the stereo field, you hang them up and do it on monitors
I fully agree that is why I orginally quoted sustain, I found that some hdphones can make almost anything sound good - at least these MM cans "let you hear the sound" if for whatever reason you are h**l bent on using cans only.
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Re: I thought headphones were better...

Post by thediscoking » Sun Aug 12, 2007 9:59 pm

sustain wrote:Speaking of stereo speakers, is it true they all have some kind of built in ('untweakable') sound enhancer, unlike monitors?
Yes, more or less. Stereo speakers and monitors have different applications and, therefor, different characteristics. For lack of a better term, the "goal" of stereo speakers is to make music sound good - where the "goal" of monitors is to accurately represent the music.

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Post by Spike Vincent » Sun Aug 12, 2007 11:50 pm

There's no such thing as too much reverb.
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Post by sustain » Mon Aug 13, 2007 4:34 am

i_watch_stars wrote: Studios use headphones for line checks and individual monitoring, never to mix or master on exclusively. Do so at your own music's peril.
Altitude wrote: Exactly right, you can track all you want with cans, but the moment you need to do anything to do with the stereo field, you hang them up and do it on monitors
When is somebody going to explain why? Aren't the acoustics of the environment always going to be different anyway?
Altitude wrote: And that is why your mixes are going to be screwed up.Human hearing does not work that way where one ear is completely isolated form the other. There is a TON of interaction between your two ears when hearing the same sound in open air and I suspect the main part of the problem of the original poster was that he did mix it on cans which masked the problem completely
Yeah ok, I just thought that was good to be avoided. Still learning...
i_watch_stars wrote: Umm...what? I don't know what the h**l that is but I doubt it is any normal functioning of the reverb, unless it is some kind of infinite decay or some bizarre feedback loop.
It's not a function of reverb. It's what has happened to me by doing something wrong with reverb. Yes: too much decay, and so a bit of feedback, that's all, it seems.
i_watch_stars wrote: Obviously if it is there on the phones, its not your speakers' problem. Honestly, people here are just shooting their mouths off because it could be a million things at this point. Could you post an mp3 or wav file of this sound?
Have you been following? You've got it the wrong way around.

I don't think I need to post it now, I EQd it by cutting one band a bit. :lol: Thanks Yoozer.

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