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Discussions about anything analog, digital, MIDI, synth technology, techniques, theories and more.
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clusterchord
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Post by clusterchord » Wed Aug 15, 2007 9:40 pm

Juno6 wrote:
carbon111 wrote:
Juno6 wrote:
Having simple digital ADSRs have not advantages over analog ADSRs to me.
You wouldn't know the difference with today's hardware because they are just time/level curves. They would be identical.

Back in the days of the Z80 type processors you would see the difference easily in slowness, slop and quantization - today those things don't have to be an issue at all.
Hi again James,
There still IS a difference. As an A6 owner I can testify that if you modulate an oscillator´s pitch with it´s envelope (env1) over a big range with a fast decay time there´s a clear quantization effect. Same happens with most digital LFOs when you take them to the fastest rates.
That´s why Sunsyn uses analogue envelopes and lfos at an added cost.
Having said that, there are better (digital) envs than others. The JP6 is from the same age of the P600 and has 16 bit envelopes...
If I had to design a synth, I´d put digital AND analogue LFOs and Envs. Analog LFOs for fast rates, and digital ones to have midi-sync. Also digital envs for complexity, and analogue ones for fast and wide modulation.

JZ:
+1000

i love my A6 but can confirm this all the way.

theory that u cannot discern btwn a new digital env and an analog, because of developments in cpu, is just wishfull thinking or educated bs. soone as you play arorund n tweak a digital env a bit, you can easily get it to reveal stepping.play a nice snappy vintage after this.. and smiel comes back to your face.

non of the digi mod sources are as smooth as pure analog. yet. this works better for some things than others. as not all are used under xtreme conditions. i like most on A6, but PWM, audio rate LFOs, and snappy percussive envs are three places where sofware generated mod does not work so well.


after playin A6, soon as i fire up jup8, its night n day. you hear immediatelly what a world of difference a good snappy n smooth hardware envelope makes. dont get me wrong, A6 is fairly "fast", and DSI stuff is very very fast as well, but there's more to a good env than speed.

btw Juno6, your idea of combining digi and analog envs, that's what i always thought an ideal new polyphonic should have. funny enough, in a way, Oberheim OB-8 had this already, 25 yrs ago. (CEM3310 envs plus digi envs on page2).
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carbon111
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Post by carbon111 » Wed Aug 15, 2007 10:06 pm

clusterchord wrote:
theory that u cannot discern btwn a new digital env and an analog, because of developments in cpu, is just wishfull thinking or educated bs. soone as you play arorund n tweak a digital env a bit, you can easily get it to reveal stepping.play a nice snappy vintage after this.. and smiel comes back to your face.

non of the digi mod sources are as smooth as pure analog. yet. this works better for some things than others. as not all are used under xtreme conditions. i like most on A6, but PWM, audio rate LFOs, and snappy percussive envs are three places where sofware generated mod does not work so well.
A lot of that just has to do with the way these things are implemented - the analog output of a d/a converter does not have to have any quantization on it at all...if it does its for cost and expediency reasons. With things like adaptave slew and fuzzy logic you can get error-free continuous, non-stepped modulation out of a d/a - when enough people complain about the artifacts, then maybe it will be implemented in a less-cheap fashion.
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wow

Post by prophei » Wed Aug 15, 2007 10:27 pm

having read through this thread, i am amazed by some things completely...

1. people are actually MAD that dave would make a synth without consulting them first...? excuse me but ...HUH???

2. people are already talking about how it sounds and they have NEVER STOOD IN FRONT OF ONE... HUH??

3. people actually feel they are in a position to tell dave what a real prophet IS, WAS or SHOULD BE... again... HUH???


how can any of you who fit the above not just feel like complete losers? this man brought us some great instruments that he made the way he wanted to make them. now he is bringing us more of them... and you are complaining WHY???

why don't you stop whining like little children and go build your own damn synths that consist of all the little pet features YOU like...and then lets see how good THOSE sound... fair enough?

thank you dave smith for always making cool music equipment. i have owned various pieces over the years, and will undoubtedly continue to do so. good luck with the new synth. i can't wait to play it.
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Re: wow

Post by redchapterjubilee » Wed Aug 15, 2007 10:40 pm

prophei wrote:having read through this thread, i am amazed by some things completely...

1. people are actually MAD that dave would make a synth without consulting them first...? excuse me but ...HUH???

2. people are already talking about how it sounds and they have NEVER STOOD IN FRONT OF ONE... HUH??

3. people actually feel they are in a position to tell dave what a real prophet IS, WAS or SHOULD BE... again... HUH???
Which is why methinks DSI did the right thing by just springing it on us rather than letting VSE and its brethren spend months dissecting it.
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Post by JUGEL » Wed Aug 15, 2007 10:42 pm

calm down fanboy ... just some people are a bit letdown with it not being multi-timbral.

Makes a big difference for people that like to make what I call ... electronic music.... not Hall & Oates covers.

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Re: wow

Post by carbon111 » Wed Aug 15, 2007 10:45 pm

redchapterjubilee wrote:
Which is why methinks DSI did the right thing by just springing it on us rather than letting VSE and its brethren spend months dissecting it.
Pretty astute observation, RCJ.

Nobody's even seen one yet and people are already discussing its looks. :)

We're all very excited. VERY.
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Post by Yoozer » Wed Aug 15, 2007 10:46 pm

carbon111 wrote: A lot of that just has to do with the way these things are implemented - the analog output of a d/a converter does not have to have any quantization on it at all...
Not only that, it's not like the modulation features of the A6 are some kind of holy grail or something that can't be topped anymore.

There's not as much to do in terms of modulations as on the Andy, I imagine, and there's always the option to divide the work amongst multiple processors that don't have to be really powerful but will be more than sufficient for the job at hand.
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Post by prophei » Wed Aug 15, 2007 10:50 pm

JUGEL wrote:calm down fanboy ... just some people are a bit letdown with it not being multi-timbral.

Makes a big difference for people that like to make what I call ... electronic music.... not Hall & Oates covers.
was this "fanboy" reference to me? i would sure hope not. respecting a man's work and fitting that comment are two different things entirely.

people didn't even know there was a synth to have an opinion about until a few days ago, so having to go on and on about the little features they wish it had to the point of dissing the whole thing is a rather filthy and pathetic disservice to exercise without having EVER actually been in the presence of said device. it is also rude and abnoxious.

are you suggesting i write hall and oats covers? are you sugesting that i am not aware of "electronic music"? is there a reason you are making stupid statements like that? i have been writing, performing and helping create tools for this "electronic music" you speak of for years, and i apparently don't need a multi-timbral prophet to do it... why do you?
andromeda > polyevolver keyboard > ms-20 > oberheim two voice > arp 2600 > minimoog > custom modular system > polivoks > roland SVC-350 > jomox mbase01 > sh2 > acidlab > tr-808 > drumtrax > korg dvp-1 > protools hd3 > mac dual 2.0 G5

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Post by KLAXON » Wed Aug 15, 2007 11:05 pm

Some people just like to complain about everything. Even if it had every feature they wanted some people would still find something to complain about like "I don't know why they used xxx wood for encaps, I wanted xxx wood instead" or "why did they use xxx colour, I wanted xxx colour" Some people will never be happy. :wink:

If you don't like it, nobody is holding a gun to your head and forcing you to buy it.
.....i have some things that create and sculpt sound.

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Post by Mr Fingers » Wed Aug 15, 2007 11:07 pm

Here, here Prophei!

I can totally understand the omitted multitimbral anxieties but as far sound and envelopes go, we can only wait and see. This is a discussion forum, not an argument forum.

Those latest samples sounded awesome to me. I was particularly interested in the sync stuff. There was one that made me say 'YES!' out loud. On my own.

I can't wait to hear/see it. I have just got the money together to buy a Prophet 5 - my dream synth, but this could tempt me to go new...

I love the way (through interviews etc) Dave Smith seems, not necessarily to disagree, but actually to be quite controversial in his opinions on things that seem to have the reputation as fact. By that I mean the impression that DCOs could NEVER be as sweet sounding as VCOs. He's asking 'Why not?'. He seems to want to analyse the qualities of each component and the relationships between those components that cause the sweet sound in the first place and rather than just saying 'f**k tuning stability, VCOs just sound better', he's thinking why CAN'T DCOs sound as good but have better tuning stability? What can we do? Other than just slap a chorus on the end! :)

Is this post nonsense?

It has some ruddy long sentences in it, I know that much.

Anyway, I'm excited for further news.

FAO Dave Bryce: Top drawer on keeping it a secret! Good fun. However, enough is enough now, post some damned pictures! :)
Current gear list: MPC2000XL x 2, Sequential Prophet 5, Arp Odyssey MkI

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Post by nathanscribe » Wed Aug 15, 2007 11:11 pm

Don't you just love the internet?

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Post by carbon111 » Wed Aug 15, 2007 11:13 pm

nathanscribe wrote:Don't you just love the internet?
...its the new "black". :D
Best Regards, James
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Post by KLAXON » Wed Aug 15, 2007 11:15 pm

carbon111 wrote:
nathanscribe wrote:Don't you just love the internet?
...its the new "black". :D
Wait, I thought white was the new black but that became to passe so it reverted back to black which also became old and so...oh, its all too confusing. :wink:
.....i have some things that create and sculpt sound.

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Post by hfinn » Wed Aug 15, 2007 11:21 pm

JUGEL wrote:Makes a big difference for people that like to make what I call ... electronic music.... not Hall & Oates covers.
That was a pretty jack-a*s thing to say, for two reasons. 1) It's implying that you are better than they are. Everyone has a niche EVEN if he is playing hall and oates covers, It's no better or worse than what any of us do and 2) Hall and Oates are awesome.
Last edited by hfinn on Wed Aug 15, 2007 11:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by CTB » Wed Aug 15, 2007 11:22 pm

All this talk of DCO's really made me realize what a thin, lame, piece of s**t with no character my JX10 is. Yeah, DCO's really suck.
:roll:

I second all the positive comments about Dave Smith, dB, and DSI. I thank them for having the balls to make something like the Prophet '08 - just knowing it is an 8-voice analog is enough to see what a risky and bold move it was. I cannot wait to see, hear, and play it.

As for some of the other comments, if someone had just come along and introduced oxygen, you'd find a way to complain about how it only gives you life but doesn't do your taxes. Sheesh.
CTB

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