Roland D50 PCM waves &other ROM synths

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Roland D50 PCM waves &other ROM synths

Post by Psy-nox » Tue Aug 21, 2007 7:04 am



Hiya all. I have a question for those who are clued up on the Roland D50 LA synth.

I am just confused about something.

The D50 has those one shot and attack transient PCM waves...I believe that the PCM wave is the very start of the sound such as the chiff of a flute and then the LA synth part sustains the sound.....

would I be correct in saying that, a synth such as Yamaha Motif or a Roland XV3080 that also uses PCM sounds in ROM, but the sustained sound in a Motif or a XV3080 is a looped PCM wave as well as the attack transient?

did that make sense!

cheers all
Psy
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Post by mao » Tue Aug 21, 2007 8:50 am

rompler like Motif, Roland JV, Kurzweil and so on usually uses a PCM wave looped somewhere. The Kurzweil is so good that let you change the start, the end, the loop point, the loop mode just like a sampler. But it's not everything PCM based... The D50 is a GOOD synth too. The K2000 has VAST synthesis cupling PCM and classic synthesis in several algorithms.

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Post by Bitexion » Tue Aug 21, 2007 9:17 am

You are partially correct. About 50 of the D50 PCMs are just the attack sections of real instruments (like the bow sound of the violin, the "chiff" sound of a flute, or the little growl on a brass instrument, hammond percussion click etc), making it possible to create amazingly realistic brass or bow instrument sounds.
But the rest are looped samples, like samples of certain drawbar settings from a Hammond organ, or various nasty digital waveforms or bells and plings and such. Then the last 10 are loops made of the other sounds, which can be very weird and musical.

Like this one
http://perkristian.net/sounds/D-50_Clockworks.mp3
(J-M Jarre used it as the intro for Revolutions)

It is Loop10 over two octaves. Alone it just sounds like some bell loop, but since there are no multisamples, the speed is exactly half one octave lower. And you get this cool musical rythm going.
You'll find some more sound bits here

http://perkristian.net/Roland_D-50_Audio.htm

And there's a huge archive of preset samples at www.synthmania.com
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D50 Linear Arithmetic

Post by Psy-nox » Tue Aug 21, 2007 11:08 am

Thanks for that guys on those remarks. Yes I was aware of the looped drawbar pcm wave forms...BUT

what does the LA synthesis part of the D50 do? where does that come in?

thanks
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Post by Bitexion » Tue Aug 21, 2007 11:37 am

The LA synthesis is simply just a Virtual analog engine with oscillators, filters, LFO's, envelopes. So you generate the body of the sound with standard analog subtractive synthesis with a sawtooth and pulse wave, and apply the tiny attack samples at the beginning for more oomph, or mix in one of the digital waveforms.

A D50 "patch" can consist of up to 4 parts, each part can be a 1 osc-1 filter-LFO-2 EGs synth, or a PCM sample (doesn't go through the filter).

There are different structures (like algorithm on the DX7) where you decide what the various parts should be, either "analog" or PCM. Like if you want to mix a bell with a fat 3-oscillator strings sound, you choose the structure where 1 parts is PCM and the 3 other parts synth. And some structures have a Ringmodulator in there too. You could mix like 2 square waves with 2 Hammond waveforms. Possibilities are endless.

This concept is called Sample&Synthesis. LA is just some fancy abbreviation they made up, stands for Linear Arithmetics, completely useless term but I guess it sounds cool for marketing purposes.

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Re: Roland D50 PCM waves &other ROM synths

Post by Synthaholic » Tue Aug 21, 2007 5:51 pm

Psy-nox wrote:The D50 has those one shot and attack transient PCM waves...I believe that the PCM wave is the very start of the sound such as the chiff of a flute and then the LA synth part sustains the sound.....
Many D-50 patches worked this way, but there are looped PCM samples available as well, and many patches layered these with the LA synth sounds to create unique (and wonderful) sounding patches. Staccato Heaven is just that... heaven. ;)
would I be correct in saying that, a synth such as Yamaha Motif or a Roland XV3080 that also uses PCM sounds in ROM, but the sustained sound in a Motif or a XV3080 is a looped PCM wave as well as the attack transient?
Pretty much all modern ROMplers use looped samples and have no analog emulation (except for a few with add-on cards) like the D-50 did.
Two VCO: thanks to the push rods, one can choose several forms of waves at the same time!
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Post by Mr. Black » Tue Aug 21, 2007 6:09 pm

The D50 was the first VA.

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Re: Roland D50 PCM waves &other ROM synths

Post by Yoozer » Tue Aug 21, 2007 7:36 pm

Psy-nox wrote: would I be correct in saying that, a synth such as Yamaha Motif or a Roland XV3080 that also uses PCM sounds in ROM, but the sustained sound in a Motif or a XV3080 is a looped PCM wave as well as the attack transient?
Yes, but that's part of a single sample. If you edit the Motif or XV presets you'll see that each preset consists of 1 to 4 "elements" (in Yamaha terms) or "tones" (in Roland terms). Each of those is a multisample, which is for the user the most basic building block (to deduce that it's a multisample, you just have to listen to the piano "elements").

Going under the hood, each multisample will contain its own attack transients and looping parts per keyrange - but you can't edit or access those. This is partly done to protect the user from the complexity involved; those multisamples are hard to do right.
"Part of an instrument is what it can do, and part of it is what you do to it" - Suzanne Ciani, 197x.

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Post by elmosexwhistle » Tue Aug 21, 2007 8:00 pm

Mr. Black wrote:The D50 was the first VA.
i thought that to be classified as a VA it'd have to use dsp power to calculate and play a saw/square/tri wave at a certain pitch in real time...the saw and square on the d50 are just sampled pcm data like everything else are they not, making it not really a VA at all, but a standard rompler affair, i hope i'm not mixing things up here...lol x

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Post by Synthaholic » Tue Aug 21, 2007 8:03 pm

The D-50 synthesized its own saw/square/pulse wave, it didn't use PCM samples for those. It could do PWM and everything. Cool engine, and definitely a precursor to today's VAs.
Two VCO: thanks to the push rods, one can choose several forms of waves at the same time!
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Post by Mr. Black » Tue Aug 21, 2007 9:16 pm

There's nothing fancy about it but D50 definitly does synthesize it's saw/square/pulse wave.

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D50 chatter

Post by Psy-nox » Wed Aug 22, 2007 4:07 am

Well, everyone, thanks for that. I feel the full bottle now on the D50.

I had the use of one back in 1989 when a relative went away and did not want to leave it in his house alone.

It ended up getting sold to some guy who was playing in a church group and then went to Melbourne and sold it too. Melbourne CIB ended up picking him up and getting back to my cousin cos the guy forged his signature on the receipt my cousin gave him. He had tampered with the receipt dates. If i knew he was going to sell it and if I had enough $ at the tender age of of 18 i didnt at all, I would have bought it.

I would say that it would be a joy to have a D50 but I do have a Motif ES6 and a XV3080. There is now a couple of sounds that the D50 are nice sounds that I would love to be able to reproduce on the Motif ES or the XV3080....those sounds are:

Bass n Strat Blues- i edited the strat sound to be more bouncy and in yer hear..put a bounce back echo on it and made it go full keyboard range...it sounds like that twoink dwoinky sound just after the kick drum in New Orders Blue Monday...u know, the sound that fades up in volume.

Some oft he other sounds that the D50 did that I am unsure if the Motif or the XV3080 are capable of is the patch 26 which is Griittarr. The chunky grungy guitar emulation. It worked well with a electronic cover of Pink Floyds Run like h**l.

I loved the first 1 and a half seconds of Digital Native Dance but b4 it went to the native loop...i jus think that the tinkly tonky loop made it sound like a child's wind up toy. Nice sound netherless.

So what doya think, what chance do I have of emulating these three sounds on either Motif ES, XV3080, Novation Nova, Korg prophecy, Yamaha CS6X and Jp8000?

thanks heaps
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Post by Mr. Black » Wed Aug 22, 2007 5:09 am

The D50's sound has yet to be authenticly recreated,alot of it's patches are in the xv3080 but they don't quite get close enough sound's like Grittar and splits, like Bass n Strat Blues can't be done because of the lo fi attack transients used to create these and forget about Digital Native Dance.

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Post by Bitexion » Wed Aug 22, 2007 5:18 am

Grittarr uses digital waveforms along with a filtered sawtooth.
I analyzed it some time ago. It has a short attack sample (strike the guitar string), a very buzzy digital looped waveform , and a thick sawtooth to form the main body.
So it's really 3 sounds in one.

Here I've isolated all 3 parts using the joystick.
First the little *chunk*, then the buzzy sound, then the saw (which is not really a saw on the D50, it has a rounded top) that sounds almost distorted, then all 3 together playing the lead from Jean-Michel Jarre's "Industrial Revolutions pt 2". The D50 pure "sawtooth" sounds very rough and dirty, I just love it.

http://home.online.no/~tom-rf/Jarre-lead.mp3

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Post by Mr. Black » Wed Aug 22, 2007 5:35 am

i never liked Grittar once you take away the attack your left with a warm but kinda mushy soft sawtooth,Grittar 2 was much better alot more cutting,and solo like,that's the one used on JMJ Industrial Revolutions.

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