DIY synths and ethics

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otto
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Post by otto » Sun Sep 02, 2007 2:20 am

And remember Tyler, the guy wouldn't have been able to build the thing in the first place without the hard work of people who actually designed, coded, debugged, etc. It looks like he made the case as cheaply as possible so he isn't really offering anything special himself. The big difference between this and an xoxbox or paia kit is that the designers of the xoxbox and paia profit off of a kit. The designers of midibox do not.

Still I can't help but thinking that Thorsten probably should have designed this as a kit so that he could be profiting from it. I'd love to see him get some kickback from his hard work and I can't help but think that the sale of these is inevitable. Well, you can just read the midibox forum to realize it happens all the time.
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Post by tallowwaters » Sun Sep 02, 2007 5:15 pm

wait, somebody thought that case was nice?

i can make a case like that for anyone here for a mere 50 bucks. h**l, if you provide me with the plexi and wood, i will slap them together with s**t for brains butt joints for only 20 bucks...
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Post by pricklyrobot » Sun Sep 02, 2007 7:17 pm

My admittedly non-expert ¢2:

Most copyright/patent infringement cases tend to focus on whether or not, and the extent to which, the infringer is hindering the copyright/patent holder's ability to make money off of the legitimate product. That's why - to use an example from this thread - you couldn't attempt to market your own Microkorg; it would potentially damage Korg's ability to sell real Microkorgs.

In this case the Midibox-SID creators (although they may have put just as much time and effort into their design as did the creators of the Microkorg) have no product (they might have more of a case to make if they did sell a kit), just a site full of instructions, schematics and such that they make freely available to the public. Someone who uses that info to make a product and sell it may be doing something unethical (i.e. going against the Midibox-SID creators stated wishes), but I doubt anyone could successfully bring suit against him.

Midibox-SIDs don't seem all that simple to make (there's a whole 5-page thread here on VSE of people trying to source parts for them), the "legit" commercial alternative (SIDstation) is quite expensive and apparently a limited release. So as long as there is demand for these things, and they aren't available pre-assembled, or at least as complete kit, some people will continue to build and sell them. Unethical or not, it's just an economic fact.

The Midibox-SID creators can either accept this behavior, attempt to bring legal action (which seems unlikely to succeed), or give the public what it seems to want (or at least license someone else to do so, if they don't want to take it on themselves) in the form of full kits and fully-assembled Midibox-SIDs.
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Post by Tyler2000 » Mon Sep 03, 2007 12:16 am

KLAXON wrote:No offence Tyler, but I don't think you are at all qualified to comment on any topic regarding ethics. You have made comments on more than one occasion about how you routinely steal, shop-lift, etc like it is a perfectly OK thing to do. :?

PS-I think a lot of people would have a different definition of "nice case" than you. His case was just a couple pieces of two by four and a piece of plexiglass. To be honest, I thought it was the ugliest and least professional looking midibox that I have seen yet.
Ouch.

Stealing and shoplifting are different, and without starting a big tanget I would just like to say that I do almost all my stealing from large corporations (ie walmart, target, etc.). I'm opposed to stealing from real people. People with faces.

The way I see that this is different is that he put a bunch of work into it. Like some other people already said, it's more like he's charging for parts and labor. I don't think that's so bad.

Of course, we aren't all going to agree. That's been made clear, but there's my thoughts.

Good point about the case. Ugly, simple. Still.
so what do I put down here now?

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Post by tallowwaters » Mon Sep 03, 2007 3:43 am

shop lifting drives up prices for those of us that dont think a 3 dollar stick of deodorant is worth the risk. each item in the inventory that goes missing has to be compensated for in some way, always by charging the consumer.

justifying stealing is a slippery slope, one that usually just makes people think you are a scumbag. I am not sure how old you are, and there was a point in my life where i thought stealing was okay, from faceless corporations or people i didnt like or people i didnt know. now i believe that a thief is one of the most despicable people around. not man enough to take something while looking someone in the eye, not man enough to work hard to earn what they want, and certainly not man enough to not earn an a*s beating, just a lowly slug leeching of somebody elses hard work.
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Post by pricklyrobot » Mon Sep 03, 2007 4:15 am

"Shoplifting is a victimless crime, like punchin' someone in the dark." :wink:
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Post by Wiglaf » Mon Sep 03, 2007 4:17 am

Tyler2000 wrote:Stealing and shoplifting are different, and without starting a big tanget I would just like to say that I do almost all my stealing from large corporations (ie walmart, target, etc.). I'm opposed to stealing from real people. People with faces.
Yeah, no-one who runs, works for, or is a shareholder of large corporations has a face.
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Post by otto » Mon Sep 03, 2007 6:37 am

Wiglaf wrote:
Tyler2000 wrote:Stealing and shoplifting are different, and without starting a big tanget I would just like to say that I do almost all my stealing from large corporations (ie walmart, target, etc.). I'm opposed to stealing from real people. People with faces.
Yeah, no-one who runs, works for, or is a shareholder of large corporations has a face.
Nor, as tallow already stated, do any of the average people that buy from these corporations. :roll: All the money lost to theft is charged right back to the honest customer. Just like all of us honest people have to pay for others bankruptcy and foreclosure. Theivery is a purely selfish act, don't bother justifying it... Grow up.
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Post by xpander » Mon Sep 03, 2007 6:44 am

still wondering what patented technology was infringed upon.

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Post by otto » Mon Sep 03, 2007 7:40 am

xpander wrote:still wondering what patented technology was infringed upon.
I don't know for sure, something about "IP" and not for commercial use infringement. Not sure what that adds up to but it is obvious the community isn't in the position to pursue legal action. Is something ok if you can get away with it?
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Post by sensorium » Mon Sep 03, 2007 3:03 pm

tallowwaters wrote:shop lifting drives up prices for those of us that dont think a 3 dollar stick of deodorant is worth the risk. each item in the inventory that goes missing has to be compensated for in some way, always by charging the consumer.

I'm not justifying shoplifting here, because I do think it's wrong, but.....

Wal-Mart etc... know what the consumers are willing to spend on product. Do you think for a second that if shoplifting stopped today, they would pass those savings down to you? Maybe take some employees off minimum wage, or increase their benefits? I think not. They have resumes stacked up for their low paying jobs, and people in line to pay the (shoplifting) inflated prices. If all that stopped, it would simply go into the pockets of the few at the top.....

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Post by otto » Mon Sep 03, 2007 5:38 pm

sensorium wrote:
tallowwaters wrote:shop lifting drives up prices for those of us that dont think a 3 dollar stick of deodorant is worth the risk. each item in the inventory that goes missing has to be compensated for in some way, always by charging the consumer.

I'm not justifying shoplifting here, because I do think it's wrong, but.....

Wal-Mart etc... know what the consumers are willing to spend on product. Do you think for a second that if shoplifting stopped today, they would pass those savings down to you? Maybe take some employees off minimum wage, or increase their benefits? I think not. They have resumes stacked up for their low paying jobs, and people in line to pay the (shoplifting) inflated prices. If all that stopped, it would simply go into the pockets of the few at the top.....
Actually Wal-Mart has succeeded at being the low cost leader and are cut-throat about it. Other grcery stores can't even compete and this is why Walmart continues to grow and knock out other businesses. In other words if they didn't have to account for any loss I'm almost completely positive prices would drop even further. However, I'm not going to defend walmart or their brand of ethics. Companies that mass sell make far more money on a cheap product that many people buy. There is far more money in mass sales than there is in expensive products for a limited amount of consumers that's why companies like Lamborgouni are repeatedly sold and have unfavorable returns but your Toyota's, Honda's, etc. are the big money makers.
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Post by Tyler2000 » Mon Sep 03, 2007 9:22 pm

What is the point of this argument again? Me shoplifting or DIY synth ethics. If it's the former it needs a title change and trip to OT.

As for shoplifting, I am not asking for you approval, acceptance, or understanding. Like I said, I do it for reasons other than I'm some kid who thinks it's cool. I'm anti-government control and anti-big-business and I AM FULLY AWARE THAT NOT MANY PEOPLE HERE WILL AGREE WITH THAT. This being said, go ahead and hate me, but please do it quietly.

I didn't even bring this up, someone else did.
so what do I put down here now?

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Post by xpander » Mon Sep 03, 2007 10:12 pm

otto wrote:
xpander wrote:still wondering what patented technology was infringed upon.
I don't know for sure, something about "IP" and not for commercial use infringement. Not sure what that adds up to but it is obvious the community isn't in the position to pursue legal action. Is something ok if you can get away with it?
patents are IP (intellectual property). specifically what was used that was "not for commercial use"? was it a patented design? i imagine if a patent was neither applied for nor awarded, it would be a losing battle for claiming a design as your intellectual property, especially if it was publicly released. all i can see are two things that do similar things, and i don't see anything that sticks out as illegal.

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Post by piRoN » Tue Sep 04, 2007 11:11 am

Tyler2000 wrote:I'm anti-government control and anti-big-business
Er... So you're a capitalistic socialist?
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