Recreating the D-50's "Soundtrack" patch

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Post by desmond » Sun Dec 02, 2007 6:15 pm

Cheers Paolo, you're a diamond! Really helpful, thank you.

Yeah, from that example, the XV D-50 saw waves a definintely sampled with the filter closed - the overall character is much more like the first set at 60% TVF.

The XV stuff is definitely brighter/cleaner still, but that shouldn't cause too much of a problem.

One thing I'm finding is that the envelopes are absolutely *critical* to get that Soundtrack attack...

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Post by Synthaholic » Sun Dec 02, 2007 7:23 pm

Didn't the JX-8P (or JX-3P) have Soundtrack even before the D-50? Of course, it was the D-50 that made it famous. In fact, Soundtrack is part of the General MIDI sound set.
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Post by desmond » Sun Dec 02, 2007 8:33 pm

Yep, the JX8P, as I mentioned earlier.

Incidentally, the XV does have the "Soundtrack" patch in it's GM set which is broadly similar, but like with most GM sounds, is just a cheap, simple copy with all of the quality removed.

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Post by Jack Spider » Mon Dec 03, 2007 1:32 am

Synthaholic wrote:Didn't the JX-8P (or JX-3P) have Soundtrack even before the D-50? Of course, it was the D-50 that made it famous. In fact, Soundtrack is part of the General MIDI sound set.
The JX-8P 'Soundtrack' patch is very different from the D-50 (and not as well-known), but it's still a beautiful patch. Paolo to the rescue (again) - he has a demo of the MKS-70, which features that very patch!

http://www.synthmania.com/Audio%20Files ... dtrack.mp3
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Post by desmond » Mon Dec 03, 2007 4:59 am

Ah, I just managed to find the Soundtrack patch that I can inspect in my editor. It seems the square waves all have quite a bit of pulse width applied to them, which makes sense.

In any case, this should help give some clues about envelope and mod settings etc...

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Post by desmond » Mon Dec 03, 2007 10:46 pm

Ongoing progress (haven't had much time to work on this yet):-

Seeing the D-50 square is more of a pulse in this patch, because of the pulse width setting.

Now the XV5080 is a glorified rompler, and as such doesn't have waveform modification features like PWM (although it does do frequency cross modulation).

So I went through the various pulse waveforms on the XV to find the closest match, which turns out to be 557: "JD SynPulse 4".

This gives a much closer timbral approximation to the D-50 waveform...

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Post by desmond » Tue Dec 04, 2007 1:39 am

Ok, I have a patch now that's in the ballpark. It will need some balance and effects tweaking, and then the key scaling will need attention.

The envelope values don't really relate to the D-50 values so I have to do them by ear. The keyboard scaling is tricky. On the D-50, the pulse width is affected by both velocity and key position - for example, higher up the keyboard the pulse is increased and the sound tends towards a square wave.

This is tricky to replicate on the XV because it doesn't do PWM. It might be possible to approximate this using a second copy of the patch using square waves instead of the pulse, and crossfading between the two up the keyboard.

But in the meantime, it's not sounding too bad and definitely has the character I'm after. I'll do some more tweaking tomorrow and post some audio demos.

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Post by steveman » Tue Dec 04, 2007 10:47 am

desmond wrote: That should get me started nicely. If anyone can also do a sysex dump of the patch, that would also be helpful - I've found afew banks on the net but they are all in obscure formats or unreadable...

Still, I should be able to get close to the essence of the patch in the XV - it will be interesting to see whether the increased fidelity in the XV makes the sound even better, or whether I have to grunge it up a little to be a bit more old-school... :)
Curiously my JV1010 has 'Soundtrack' as a preset, surprised it ain't on the XV. Not sure whether this is the D50 or the JX-8P version, still I overuse it too... I'll see if I can do a Sysex dump.

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Post by Bitexion » Tue Dec 04, 2007 12:16 pm

But the JX8P version is not the same sound at all. On the D50 it is two waves set a fifth apart, fading in slowly.

on JX it is just a dark strings sound you could use to make "soundtracks" with, possibly.

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Post by desmond » Tue Dec 04, 2007 2:24 pm

steveman wrote:Curiously my JV1010 has 'Soundtrack' as a preset, surprised it ain't on the XV.
The XV has the GM patch, which is cheesy and cheap, and it has the "Soundtraque" patch which is inspired by the D-50 patch but sounds quite different - in many ways it's like a blend between the D-50 and the JX8P patches of the same name.

There have been audio examples posted to this thread of both of the D-50 patch, and the very different JX8P patch - which does the JV1010 version sound like?

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Re: Recreating the D-50's "Soundtrack" patch

Post by desmond » Wed Jun 21, 2017 11:21 am

Now the Roland D-50 plugin is here, and I can really investigate the various sources independently, it's time to dust off this little project again... ;)

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Re: Recreating the D-50's "Soundtrack" patch

Post by desmond » Sun Jun 25, 2017 8:18 pm

It's great to be able to play with the patch on the D50 (plugin) and solo out the various elements to hear them properly etc.

The Soundtrack patch uses 2 tones, each with two partials. They are all very similar to each other, and are therefore based on the same core partial settings - you can flip between partials and see which sliders change or stay the same, very similar settings for all partials.

For each Tone, partial 2 carries the body of the pad sound, with partial 1 having a shortened envelope version with no sustain and a pronounced pitch scoop to give it that weird attack.

Tone 1 (Lower tone) is very similar to Tone 2, except it's a bit brighter (it forms the +7 semitone part of the patch), and there are some minor envelope and velocity changes. Tone 1 actually has the same pitch as Tone 2, it's when they are combined in the patch that the Lower tone has a +7 pitch shift applied.

There is an important tonal change based on velocity, on all partials. All are set to a square wave, the pulse width of which is controlled by velocity. At normal to high velocities, the pulse width is fairly high giving a thin-ish nasally wave (which is smoothed out by a low filter cutoff and no resonance). But at low velocities, the pulse width modulation comes right down to the core square wave, giving a great hollow square wave sound when played softly (this is also featured on various records using this patch).

Both tones are run through a thick chorus which goes a long way to thickening and blurring the core tone nicely, and is finished off by a long "Chapel" reverb, which is a bit metallic in the tail.

So, now that I know better what's going on, I can look at recreating the patch on the XV. The first task will be to match waves as close as possible to the D50, and to find a way to replicate the pulse width changes, which are key (the XV doesn't do pulse width modulation, although there is a way of tricking it, or I might be able to get close by layering a square and a thin pulse wave and using velocity to crossfade them). I'd like to try and do this using internal XV waveforms if possible, rather than sampling out the D50 VA waveforms and using those.)

Once I'm in the ballpark with the core Upper 2 partial, I can copy those to the other three "partials", and make the necessary changes across them so each performs the correct role. Then find appropriate chorus and reverb settings...

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Re: Recreating the D-50's "Soundtrack" patch

Post by desmond » Sun Jun 25, 2017 9:41 pm

As I had some plugins to hand, I pulled up Zebra and started to knock up something. It was going ok until I remembered you can't use MSEG's in Zebra for the amp envelope, and as the envelopes have a certain multistage-type requirement, I abandoned it.

So I pulled up the Wavestation instead, and was able to pretty closely replicate the tone of the pulse wave and filter from the source partial, but then I needed to duplicate that patch to change the waveform and set up velocity crossfading, and that's when you remember how bad the plugin is over the hardware - on the hardware, you just duplicate your first patch into a new patch slot, change the wave, and off you go. On the plugin - nope, you can't do that - you have no access to the patch or wave sequence banks other than to select them, or choose which one you want to edit.

So, my carefully sculpted patch with envelope and filter settings and so on I'd have to recreate from scratch, parameter by parameter, into a second patch, rather than just duplicating the first, which is bonkers stupid (the D50 plugin has no copy/paste between partials, tones and patches either).

Plugins are great, and we have amazing interfaces, and yet so many fail at the hurdle of actually *using* them productively. Grr...

(I'd have been better off doing it on my real Wavestation, but the reason I didn't was because it's in storage and I couldn't dig it out quickly - the same reason I'm not doing this right now on the XV5080, it's not to hand, so I was rigging something up on plugins because it was nice and convenient...)

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Re: Recreating the D-50's "Soundtrack" patch

Post by desmond » Tue Jul 04, 2017 12:29 am

Had a quick look at this again tonight.

I can broadly match the main core Soundtrack pulse wav on the XV, but the main challenge as that the D50 has pulse wave modulation on both saw and square waves, and the XV does not. You can *approximate* PWM in some small conditions (using one particular combination of a saw wave and it's inverse), but we really need a square wave for this patch so that doesn't work too well.

Ok, given that Soundtrack uses PW modulation, mostly driven by velocity, for the main tones, the movement is not such a problem because the filter tends to be fairly closed (it's more open on the BriteFifth tone). *But*, at low velocities (around 28 and below), the PWM mod reduces the waveform to more or less the pure D50 square wave, so you get a really nice hollow square wave version of the sound when played softly, which is a key feature of the patch.

Options with this are to:

a) ignore the square wave, and just focus on the main tone at "normal" velocities. I could always do a different version of the patch with square waves for just that second variation.

b) Use two patches, one for each, and velocity crossfade them together in a multi

c) sample out the D50 waves, and create a multi sample going from square to narrow pulse, and use tha as the base waveform for the patch. (This is sampling from the VA section, so Roland's sound recordings are less of a problem here. In fact, the XV already has quite a lot of D50 samples already in it's core ROM.) A downside of this approach is you have to us the XV's "multi-partial" mode (basically, the S7xx sampler engine, rather than the normal "4-Tone" XV engine).

I'll probably start with a), and just see if I can get the main patch into shape, and go from there...
Last edited by desmond on Wed Jul 05, 2017 3:15 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Recreating the D-50's "Soundtrack" patch

Post by john909kid » Wed Jul 05, 2017 2:26 am

Very interesting updates, and good that you've been able to use the D50 plug-in for some additional help.

So the patch uses PWM, which the XV5080 lacks. Would this help in anyway?
How to achieve PWM on Roland’s SuperJV / XP and XV series

Here's a JD990 (which lacks PWM) doing the D50 Soundtrack patch.

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