How to sequence like k schulze, tangerine dream

Discussions about anything analog, digital, MIDI, synth technology, techniques, theories and more.

How to sequence like k schulze, tangerine dream

Postby lfoman » Fri Feb 15, 2008 11:54 pm

I'm looking for some suggestions on how to make the trademark sequence that is used on many of the early schulze, TD albums.I tend to try and fake it with an arpeggiator and reverb,and I'm having a hard time tweeking the sequencer on my evolver desktop.I have a nord lead2x,an Ion and an alesis mmt8 to work with as well.[list=]alesis ion,roland xp50,nord lead2x,waldorf nanosyncard,korg er-1,m-tron,minimonsta,oddity, alesis mmt8[/list]
lfoman
Newbie
Newbie
 
Posts: 7
Joined: Fri Feb 15, 2008 11:21 pm
Location: wisconsin
Gear: waldorf blofeld,alesis ion,novation xio synth,roland xp50,g medai m-tron.oddity,mini monsta,korg r3 korg er-1 roland saturn 09

Postby Synthprophet » Sat Feb 16, 2008 12:36 am

From what I have heard and seen of Klaus Schulzes music, he is just using simple 8 or 16 step sequencers and then moving the whole sequence tones up or down using the keyboard that triggers the synth and sequencer. It's a pretty simple process.
Clavia: /Nord Lead 2x/
Roland: /AX-Synth/D-50/SH-201/
Korg: /EMX-1/Microkorg/Monotron/MS-20 Mini
User avatar
Synthprophet
Active Member
Active Member
 
Posts: 338
Joined: Tue Oct 26, 2004 5:05 pm
Location: Denmark

Postby Mixolydian » Sat Feb 16, 2008 12:49 am

TD used analog sequencers, but you can use a software based sequencer. Like Synthprophet said, 8 and 16 step sequencers are the key. Also, if you can add subtle variations to the velocity and volume it will make it sound more analog like.

Here's my favorite 16/8 step software sequencer: http://www.wizardmaster.com/bludgeonsoft/wmcp/ It looks odd, but it's really cool. It works great with my analog gear, but my digital stuff can't react fast enough for it. So it may or may not work with your VAs.

TD also used phase shifters, choruses, and delays extensively. Look for old analog guitar effect pedals. You'd be surprised how close you can get to the TD sound with an analog phaser and delay.

I guess the next step would be to get a real analog synth, especially one with midi if your going to sequence it from your computer.
Last edited by Mixolydian on Sat Feb 16, 2008 3:08 am, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
Mixolydian
Supporting Member!
Supporting Member!
 
Posts: 249
Joined: Fri Oct 13, 2006 12:26 pm
Location: Colorado Springs

Postby Suburban Bather » Sat Feb 16, 2008 2:22 am

I second what Mixolydian said on fx. You definitely need to experiment with fx(delay, reverb, phaser, flanger,etc..) while your sequences are running. Also, while your seqs. are running, tweak your filters and envelopes assigned to filter and amp. Again, delay delay delay delay + other modulating fx!!!!! See what happens when delay is placed before and or after a phaser/flanger or an envelope filter/auto-wah.

Are you using a DAW? In Ableton Live there is a pitch midi plugin. The pitch plugin allows you to transpose your entire midi sequence with one knob movement. Its alot easier than copying and pasting a group of midi notes up and down a piano roll. If you don't have Live or a DAW with a similar feature, I'm sure there is a similar plugin availlable on KVR.

You don't need analog synths for TD style music, but it certainly does help. Any VA with a bunch of knobs or soft synth with a midi controller's knobs/sliders mapped to key parameters ready to be tweaked will do.

Drop any pre-concieved rules you have about music, open your mind, and above all..... HAVE FUN! If you don't get an exact replica of Tangerine Dream style music, don't worry about it. You'll probably get your own sound that is based on an influence of what your trying to mimic.

Cheers!
Thomas
User avatar
Suburban Bather
Active Member
Active Member
 
Posts: 535
Joined: Thu Aug 16, 2007 11:58 pm
Location: Waldorf, MD
Gear: Wretch Machine, Oberkorn3, Monotribe, TR-626, FX

Postby Denms20 » Sat Feb 16, 2008 3:31 am

TD got pretty elaborate with some of their sequencing, a lot of times they were adjusting the filters as well as the pitch with their analog sequencers. They were doing a lot of adjusting on the fly too.
Hammond CV, M3, s6, Korg MS-20, SP-100, CX-3, Hohner D-6, Roland JX8P, Sound Canvas, Yamaha Tx7, Casio CZ101, Rhodes, Crumar T1
http://www.organdenstudio.com
Denms20
Junior Member
Junior Member
 
Posts: 153
Joined: Mon Sep 20, 2004 2:50 am
Location: Pa, USA
Gear: Korg MS-20, CX-3, SP 100, Roland JX8P, Sound Canvas, Hammond CV, M3, S-6,L-100 Rhodes , Wurly, D-6 clav, Yamaha TX-7, Crumar T-1, Casio CZ-101

Postby Stab Frenzy » Sat Feb 16, 2008 3:49 am

It's really easy with an Evolver. Set up your sequence using it's sequencer. Use some of its delays for delay and chorus. Transpose it up and down with a keyboard over midi. Simple, everything you need in one box, which you already own.
User avatar
Stab Frenzy
Moderator
Moderator
 
Posts: 9723
Joined: Tue Jun 06, 2006 5:41 pm
Location: monster island*
Gear: Eurorack, RYTM, Ultranova, many FX

thanks for the advice!

Postby lfoman » Sat Feb 16, 2008 4:13 am

many thanks for all the advice,I look forward to trying alot of the suggestions out. I've been a visitor to VSE for at least a couple of years and feel kinda silly for waiting so long to register and get involved.
thanks again!
lfoman
Newbie
Newbie
 
Posts: 7
Joined: Fri Feb 15, 2008 11:21 pm
Location: wisconsin
Gear: waldorf blofeld,alesis ion,novation xio synth,roland xp50,g medai m-tron.oddity,mini monsta,korg r3 korg er-1 roland saturn 09

Postby manticore101 » Sat Feb 16, 2008 10:43 am

Kalus Schultze and Tangerine dream also often used a tape echo on the sequences,in order to f.ex double or the number of notes or broaden the sound. If you download a demo of arturia's moog modular at http://www.arturia.com and call up the K.Scultze sequencer presets you will understand what I mean.
Roland Juno-60, SH-2, SH-101, Juno 106, S-330, MKS-20, JV-2080, Moog Prodigy, Solina String Ensemble, Yamaha DX-7, EX-5, P-250, Cheetah MS-6, Novation Superbasstation, AKAI S-3000CD, Korg CX-3, Alesis ION.
User avatar
manticore101
Newbie
Newbie
 
Posts: 46
Joined: Fri Sep 01, 2006 7:34 am
Location: Norway

I guess I'm looking for an easy cheat

Postby lfoman » Sat Feb 16, 2008 6:25 pm

I'm really looking for a hardware method of re-creating that hypnotic evolving sequence. I love using the software synth I have but only in stand alone fashion,I don't have the money for a nice computer and the desire to work agianst the learning curve of a DAW I have tryed in the past and felt for the time being it would be a better use of my time to have a greater understanding of synthesis and improving my chops.
Ive had some luck with the sequencer in the evolver, and have not tried useing the old alesis like a step sequencer along with the delay and phasing ( I really liked that suggestion) I'm open to a stand alone sequencer MFB step 64 or future retro mobius if anyone out there can give me a heads up on either one of these guys. thanks again.

[list=]alesis ion,nord lead2x,roland xp50 w vintage synth/ keys 60/70s board ,DSI evolver,korg er1,CME uf5 w waldorf nanosyncard, alesis mmt8[/list]
lfoman
Newbie
Newbie
 
Posts: 7
Joined: Fri Feb 15, 2008 11:21 pm
Location: wisconsin
Gear: waldorf blofeld,alesis ion,novation xio synth,roland xp50,g medai m-tron.oddity,mini monsta,korg r3 korg er-1 roland saturn 09

Postby Bitexion » Sat Feb 16, 2008 6:47 pm

Then you'll want one of these bitches:

Image
Analogue Systems RS-200 3x8 step sequencer.

And a synth with CV inputs to control of course.
It replicates the old moog sequencers in operation.
User avatar
Bitexion
Synth Explorer
Synth Explorer
 
Posts: 4230
Joined: Fri Apr 15, 2005 7:43 pm
Location: Drammen, Norway
Gear: Alesis Andromeda A6
Roland D-50
Creamware Minimax
Yamaha DX7s
Analogue Systems modular
Ensoniq SQ-80
Waldorf Blofeld

schwing!!!!!!!!!

Postby lfoman » Sat Feb 16, 2008 7:17 pm

man that is pretty,it maybe out of reach right now but thanks for rthe big smile on my face! I really would like to say in the VA relm, I love the sound of the evolver and I'm sure the VA's i like so much would pail in comparision to either the vintage boards or the new analoge synths that are around but I stay in a budget and I'm happy with what I have.
lfoman
Newbie
Newbie
 
Posts: 7
Joined: Fri Feb 15, 2008 11:21 pm
Location: wisconsin
Gear: waldorf blofeld,alesis ion,novation xio synth,roland xp50,g medai m-tron.oddity,mini monsta,korg r3 korg er-1 roland saturn 09

Postby Mixolydian » Sat Feb 16, 2008 10:24 pm

That analog hardware sequencer is nice, but I know I couldn't afford it either. Your Evolver should do nicely.

Here's a song I just posted on Soundclick showing a lot of what's being discussed here: phase shifters, delay, and using software to manipulate midi files to make a delay effect.

http://soundclick.com/share?songid=6274675

I used a Roland MKS-7, MKS-50, and a Novation BassStation, and ran them through a Tokai TPH-1 analog phase shifter and an Ibanez CD-10 analog delay (guitar pedals.) The high tines are from my Yamaha YS-200 (FM.) On that and other parts, I made the initial midi file in Cakewalk, then cloned it, chopped the beginning off, staggered it, and reduced the velocity. This creates a nice receding delay effect.
User avatar
Mixolydian
Supporting Member!
Supporting Member!
 
Posts: 249
Joined: Fri Oct 13, 2006 12:26 pm
Location: Colorado Springs

Postby clusterchord » Sat Feb 16, 2008 11:36 pm

for typical TD sequences u need 16 steps, tho early ones, like on Ricochet or Rubycon used 8, or even only 4 steps.

ditto on space echo its conrnerstone of early and mid TD sound.
also BBD analog delays. and a vintagey-sounding phaser - be it small stone, mutron biphase, moogerfooger or schulte..


bk to sequencers..

i was checking out the awesome AS unit, but alas only 8 steps, dunno if theres a way to chunk two units togehter for 16 step operation? other than that, it got all u could want from a classic analgoue step sequencer, in terms of syncing, step or trigger on off switchies.. very thought-thru design.

i only worked with ARP 1603 and its much more versatile than it meets the eye. 2x8 or 1x16 sequence possible. simple yet perfect. there's also PlanB s Milton sequencer, which used to be avail in DIY. that version (not the fancy pre-made version sold now) used to offer as much as 4x16 step operation. and had VC control of tempo, so all kind a crazy effects are possible.

only thing i hanvet figured out is how to do sequnece racheting on any of those units. (think Streatosfear sequences occasional doubling of triggers to 32nds - best example in history). and im not sure if AS or Milton can do it, or if some additional module is needed for this.. like Metalbox divider or somethin.


altough id love an analog seq myself, practical considerations force me to choose something with memory, in other words MIDI. and so far Shrittmacher and Sequentix P3 got closest to this Berliner-Schule sequencing. im using lota midied analogs as it is, and a few CV-only oldies id drive via midi/cv converter. and "force to scale" is a huge feature for live seq improv. unless u want consant parallel transpositions like on Rubycon or Schultze early works, which does get tiresome if done to often.

so far, Im still waiting for Colin to come out with his new P4. keeping fingers crossed. i liked the P3 concept a lot, and P4 will have a few much needed upgrades. like two discrete midi outs.. and retain those sexy commodore keys. at least Colin said it will..
Image

jupiter · oberheim · prophet · sh · moog · andromeda · ppg wave · vs · waldorf · yamaha · eii · casio
rhodes · solina · acetone · eurorack · system100 · förster · lexicon · eventide · space echo · svc350 etc
User avatar
clusterchord
Active Member
Active Member
 
Posts: 742
Joined: Sun Oct 02, 2005 8:35 pm
Location: Zagreb, Croatia
Real name: Tomislav
Band: Nimbus Dei

Postby shaft9000 » Sun Feb 17, 2008 12:37 am

Your Evolver should get you going fairly well in that direction.
For getting the 70's sound, Clusterchord and Bitexion already mentioned the true quality stuff that enables very close to near-exact performance of the old Moog 931 analog sequencer. Dotcom makes a 931 clone that is pricey as well.
For those of us w/out wads of cash to drop on a true analog seq, you can do quite a lot with a FutureRetro Mobius for around 400USD, but the Mobius would be limited to MIDI note data only, plus a few CV outs for analog synths that can accept CV in. It's also a digital sequencer, which is nice for beginners since it avoids 'pitch droops' and wierd tuning problems you can get with fully analog designs. Even people with huge modulars have them as well, since analog sequencers are generally the most expensive modules you find.
At the bottom of the barrel, yet it's a bit more flexible for this purpose than the Evolver is the Korg MS2000, which has a full row of 16 knobs which can be set to affect 3 parameters independently. It's actually 3 separate sequencers that share the same knobs. Trouble is it doesn't send MIDI so only internal sounds can be used. It won't sound like a Moog modular hardly at all, but I wouldn't underestimate it either. For the money it's the only thing out there that can do the 16-knob dance afaik.

clusterchord wrote:only thing i hanvet figured out is how to do sequnece racheting on any of those units. (think Streatosfear sequences occasional doubling of triggers to 32nds - best example in history).


gotta agree... the 'galloping' section in Invisible Limits is soooo great. i read an interview w/ Chris Franke from several years back where he was vaguely refering to 'something we used to do with the sequences' that he doesn't hear from newer groups. Sounds like racheting to me.
It would have to be an analog 'roll' function of somekind. A wild guess would be patching something like a lag processor (or cv attenuator/booster) working off a squarewave control signal, the note signal & eg being re-activated just before the next sequenced step. The trouble being keeping even or 1/3 rhythmic divisions to those pre-triggers. This might not work at all, but what are modulars for but experimentation.
2600.solus.modcan a.eurorack.cs60.JP8.Juno6.A6.sunsyn.volcakeys.jd990.tb303.x0xb0x.revolution.
999.m1am1.RY30.svc350.memotron

shaft9000.muffwiggler.com <- singles & mixtape
shaft9000.bandcamp.com <- spacemusic album
youtube.com/shaft9000 <- various synth demos and studies
User avatar
shaft9000
Supporting Member!
Supporting Member!
 
Posts: 2042
Joined: Tue Nov 14, 2006 3:13 am
Location: VanNuys, CA USA
Real name: Dave
Gear: Whips chains waxes oils dildos DMT TNT the LHC, and a black rubber duckie
Band: moneymoneymoney

Postby Bitexion » Sun Feb 17, 2008 1:16 am

You use the Sequential switch (on the right) to chain the sequencer rows together, or make them bounce around. The last step in each row creates an "end pulse", and you use that as clock signal for the switch, and the outputs from each row into the switch inputs. Then you get up to 24 steps before it repeats. The 3rd row has a slew (portamento) time control aswell. Wonderful sequencer. Each row has its own output so you can use the row to control filter cutoff or oscillator pitch or anything.

You can even send an audio rate signal to the sequencer clock input, and it becomes a complex waveform depending on the steps. Sounds like a weird digital waveform where you can remove harmonics with the 8 steps. Kind of additive synthesis I guess.
User avatar
Bitexion
Synth Explorer
Synth Explorer
 
Posts: 4230
Joined: Fri Apr 15, 2005 7:43 pm
Location: Drammen, Norway
Gear: Alesis Andromeda A6
Roland D-50
Creamware Minimax
Yamaha DX7s
Analogue Systems modular
Ensoniq SQ-80
Waldorf Blofeld

Next

Return to General Synthesizers

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 20 guests