lfo's & S&H

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sleestack
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lfo's & S&H

Post by sleestack » Fri Jul 18, 2008 3:15 am

Is it possible to sync lfo's and s&h's to clock rate? Or to a trigger from a sequencer? Is this possible on many vintage synths?

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Re: lfo's & S&H

Post by Stab Frenzy » Fri Jul 18, 2008 3:26 am

sleestack wrote:Is it possible to sync lfo's and s&h's to clock rate?
Yes, depending on the synth.
sleestack wrote:Or to a trigger from a sequencer?
Yes, depending on the sequencer.
sleestack wrote:Is this possible on many vintage synths?
No, most vintage synths have free running LFOs. S+H can often be triggered by a trigger in pulse though, you're more likely to get syncable S+H than syncable LFOs on vintage gear.

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Re: lfo's & S&H

Post by meatballfulton » Fri Jul 18, 2008 1:16 pm

sleestack wrote:Is it possible to sync lfo's and s&h's to clock rate? Or to a trigger from a sequencer? Is this possible on many vintage synths?
Synching is not possible on anything without MIDI unless it's a modular system and even then it's rather complicated.

MIDI synths with synchable LFOs started coming on the market in the 1990s but even today not all synths offer synchable LFOs. For example my Yamaha Motif ES has two LFOs per patch, one can be clock synched but the other cannot. If in doubt, read the manual carefully.
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Post by sleestack » Fri Jul 18, 2008 5:27 pm

thanks

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Post by Zamise » Sat Jul 19, 2008 5:23 am

meatballfulton - some of the motif effects I'm thinking ought to contain LFOs too ;)

The RS7000's LFO does some cool stuff, but still kind of limited. Nothing cooler than bpm syncing a user made LFO to Amp on a vocal sample and having odd slices. Wish I had a second that could modulate the first, but thats where I found the ones in effects to be a little extra handy or just use my hand. Wish the steps didn't have to always be evenly spaced too, like I wish I could sometimes just draw some sloppy lines with more squigles toward the end. Also wish I could route the external inputs to the LFO, but again, that is where the LFOs in the effects settings can come in a bit handy. That extra cool stuff is probably where some of the newer synths, and software can also come in more handy if your LFO is hairy chested, but oh well.

Key on reset each on - starts over for each note, good for bpm syncing.
Key on reset off - free run, good for more analogyish automated sweeps, bad a*s in mono mode, never know where it'll be at when start.
Key on reset 1st on - good for glissando calrissian or legatos.

I think I read those Kenton Pro Solos have some kick a*s LFOs, thinking they can send out to CV/Gate too I think so perhaps working with some of your old LFOless analogs? Also thinking Peavey PC-1600 might too which might be good for older midiable synths. Don't quote me on those tho, they arn't synths but seem like maybe can send LFOs externaly and I'm not all that familar with these boxes yet, maybe someone else who knows them better can shed some more light on how their LFOs would work?

Whooopeee yeah, much fun! Don't forget about phase shifting in degrees too.

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Post by meatballfulton » Mon Jul 21, 2008 10:45 pm

Zamise wrote: Wish the steps didn't have to always be evenly spaced too, like I wish I could sometimes just draw some sloppy lines with more squigles toward the end.
Yamaha did do that on the AN1x and AN200 synths. They call it a "Free EG" but it's really more like Korg's "modulation sequencers". You can record knob twists and synch them to MIDI clock, or just draw your own waveforms with the computer editor. There's four available per patch :shock:

I wish the Motif user LFO mode was more like that, but what you do get is pretty cool.
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Post by Zamise » Tue Jul 22, 2008 3:34 am

I have an AN1X, I knew it had free EG, but didn't know that was what it equated to on it. Never thought of it like that, I thought it was just recording the changes in the EG knob movements, not actually making an EG. Sort of like having one note be a long release then the next a shorter one, or quick attack then next note a long attack. Maybe more like assigning an LFO to do automated ADSR modulation. Somewhat difrent than I thought from being like just a cool LFO waveform, which I did figure it could prob still record Amp Filter & Pitch movements too along with ADSRs. Not sure which or both now. But anyway, not sure any of that is making any sense... Hmm... well I'll have to give it a shot now to see how much fun it is or not.
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Post by aeon » Tue Jul 22, 2008 3:35 pm

One of the best (non-vintage) synths I know of as it concerns LFO sync and trigger options is the Elektron Monomachine.

Each of the 6 tracks in the Monomachine offers 3 LFOs, which are identical in potential function. The 18 LFOs offer 11 waveforms (5 basic shapes plus mirrored copies of all but the Random (“RND”) shape) and 5 trig modes. The LFOs are tied to their specific tracks, and they can control any parameter of the track for the internal or the MIDI sequencer, as well as the other LFOs. The Monomachine's LFOs are synchronized to the global tempo, and have controls for a linear control of speed along with a multiplier that allows for a very wide range of speeds, but still with a high degree of control. The Monomachine's LFOs can be interlaced with a zero value for the creation of trills, stutters, and other gated effects. The Monomachine's LFOs can be scaled in amplitude with specific value control of destination parameters. You can create complex modulations by letting an LFO control a parameter of another LFO. If you select the same destination for two different LFO tracks their outputs will be added, making advanced layered LFOs possible.

You can sequence LFO triggering separately from other triggers, such as note-ons. The Monomachine's trigger modes are:
  • FREE - The LFO is running continuously, never restarting or stopping.
  • TRIG - The waveform is restarted for each LFO-trig, and then runs continuously.
  • HOLD - The waveform is running free in the background, but the output LFO level is latched for each LFO-trig and held still until the next LFO-trig.
  • ONE - The waveform is restarted for each LFO-trig, then runs for one cycle and finally stops and holds the last LFO level.
  • HALF - The waveform is restarted for each LFO-trig, then runs for one half cycle and finally stops and holds the last LFO level.
The Monomachine's LFO waveforms are:
  • TRI - Triangular waveform
  • ITRI - Inverse Triangular waveform
  • SAW - Saw tooth waveform
  • ISAW - Inverse Saw tooth waveform
  • SAW - Saw tooth waveform
  • ISAW - Inverse Saw tooth waveform
  • EXP - Exponential Decay
  • IEXP - Inverse Exponential Decay
  • RMP - Linear Ramp
  • IRMP - Inverse Linear Ramp
  • RND - Random Levels

cheers,
Ian

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Re: lfo's & S&H

Post by Denms20 » Tue Jul 22, 2008 9:15 pm

meatballfulton wrote:
Synching is not possible on anything without MIDI unless it's a modular system and even then it's rather complicated.
The MS20'll do it, rather easily too.
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Post by ColorForm2113 » Wed Jul 23, 2008 4:43 am

it would be extra gear but i think the Moog Control Processor 251 will do this

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Post by Neonlights84 » Thu Jul 24, 2008 11:17 pm

ColorForm2113 wrote:it would be extra gear but i think the Moog Control Processor 251 will do this
Among other things..My little phatty has been bugging me for weeks to get one. He needs a Moog friend! 8)
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Post by SynthiChris » Thu Jul 24, 2008 11:48 pm

My Uncle owns an ARP 2600, No Midi, but me an him spent an hour trying to keep the LFO in Sync with his External S&H Clock. I have more trouble keeping the LFO in Sync, rather than getting in sync because you have to tune the LFO after awhile because they get out of tune quick
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Post by Automatic Gainsay » Fri Jul 25, 2008 12:38 am

SynthiChris wrote:My Uncle owns an ARP 2600, No Midi, but me an him spent an hour trying to keep the LFO in Sync with his External S&H Clock. I have more trouble keeping the LFO in Sync, rather than getting in sync because you have to tune the LFO after awhile because they get out of tune quick
Does your uncle have the model of 2600 where the LFO resides in the keyboard? I don't have that one, so I don't know what sort of output options you have.
If he has the model of 2600 where an oscillator must be used as LFO, he could have used the square wave output of the LFO oscillator as the S&H external clock, and the other waves for LFO... and it would have stayed in perfect sync without having to retune.
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Post by SynthiChris » Fri Jul 25, 2008 3:24 am

Automatic Gainsay wrote:
SynthiChris wrote:My Uncle owns an ARP 2600, No Midi, but me an him spent an hour trying to keep the LFO in Sync with his External S&H Clock. I have more trouble keeping the LFO in Sync, rather than getting in sync because you have to tune the LFO after awhile because they get out of tune quick
Does your uncle have the model of 2600 where the LFO resides in the keyboard? I don't have that one, so I don't know what sort of output options you have.
If he has the model of 2600 where an oscillator must be used as LFO, he could have used the square wave output of the LFO oscillator as the S&H external clock, and the other waves for LFO... and it would have stayed in perfect sync without having to retune.
I think it is the one with the LFO in the key module, Because I remember we had to Reset the LFO many times to sync in with the SH Clock, Because I thought of using The Osc, to create the basic square voltage sweep, but we had no output to the SH clock. (This was 2 years ago, so Its hard to remember), I think he had a Gray Meanie, with the 3620 update on the keyboard. He had it fully inspected by his friend which was an ARP tech, and he said that the revision was the Beta version which had limits from the standard released 3620, which has its ups and downs. I'll probably ask him about it, but im pretty sure he was running it through the keyboard.
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Post by Automatic Gainsay » Fri Jul 25, 2008 4:17 am

SynthiChris wrote:
Automatic Gainsay wrote:
SynthiChris wrote:My Uncle owns an ARP 2600, No Midi, but me an him spent an hour trying to keep the LFO in Sync with his External S&H Clock. I have more trouble keeping the LFO in Sync, rather than getting in sync because you have to tune the LFO after awhile because they get out of tune quick
Does your uncle have the model of 2600 where the LFO resides in the keyboard? I don't have that one, so I don't know what sort of output options you have.
If he has the model of 2600 where an oscillator must be used as LFO, he could have used the square wave output of the LFO oscillator as the S&H external clock, and the other waves for LFO... and it would have stayed in perfect sync without having to retune.
I think it is the one with the LFO in the key module, Because I remember we had to Reset the LFO many times to sync in with the SH Clock, Because I thought of using The Osc, to create the basic square voltage sweep, but we had no output to the SH clock. (This was 2 years ago, so Its hard to remember), I think he had a Gray Meanie, with the 3620 update on the keyboard. He had it fully inspected by his friend which was an ARP tech, and he said that the revision was the Beta version which had limits from the standard released 3620, which has its ups and downs. I'll probably ask him about it, but im pretty sure he was running it through the keyboard.
If you're using an oscillator for the LFO, you've got the squarewave output which works basically the same as a trigger pulse, and will control the frequency of the Sample and Hold clock.
He very likely didn't have a Grey Meanie, as they are extremely rare. The grey version that came out after the Grey Meanie is commonly mistaken for the Grey Meanie. The "Meanie" versions of the 2600 were (erroneously) called that because they had an aluminum shell which made maintenance very difficult. If his had a Tolexed wooden box for a shell, then it was just the Grey Face version, and may have had a Moog-ripoff filter.
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