older first generation lineage VA synths ;)

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Re: "Vintage" VA synths

Post by Architecture » Fri May 01, 2009 3:32 pm

yea I was just wanting to start a discussion too, but it just didnt translate over on this forum. I didnt expect to cause such an uproar on what I thought was an innocent discussion. Its not like I said Mac is better than PC or Analog is better than digital, that I did not say.

I was just wanting to make a discussion about older VA's how they have a unique character to them, like we were saying on GS.

so back on topic, the song that actually gave me this idea was a song by Nynex called Rev. The bassline has that obvious VA to sound to it, that is unmistakably VA. Its obviously trying to emulate analog, but it fails so much at it, that it has its own unique characteristic.


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Re: "Vintage" VA synths

Post by redchapterjubilee » Fri May 01, 2009 5:23 pm

Last night I finally got around to watching a live Killers dealy I had taped on Fuse a couple of weeks ago. Brandon Flowers still uses the "state of the art" from 2003. MicroKorg & Nord Lead. Sounded fantastic to me. I guess whatever works works y'know? I have wanted a Nord Lead Rack for a long, long time and everytime someone has one for sale at a good price I can't afford it. And there's never one at a good price when I do have the money. Sucks to be me I suppose.

I guess everything becomes vintage at some point. That anyone would start to fetishize older VA's doesn't really surprise me. Afterall, they really do have different sounds. The Yamaha AN's are different than the Nords and are different than the Korgs and so on and so forth.
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Re: "Vintage" VA synths

Post by ryryoftokyo » Fri May 01, 2009 6:22 pm

often times I feel as if my AN1x sounds more analog than most actual analogs. Also, it has a HUGE sound if properly programmed that would shame even a Minimoog.

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Re: "Vintage" VA synths

Post by Joey » Fri May 01, 2009 7:03 pm

haha wow tofuik must be having a bad day

as for architecture, you have the mindset that I have had about VA's for ages now... they are just synths, they excel at different things
No one cares, no one sympathizes,
so you just stay home and play synthesizers.

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Re: "Vintage" VA synths

Post by otto » Fri May 01, 2009 7:18 pm

I’m not surprised at all. I just think it is incredibly stupid. I don’t think newer VAs are any more inferior or have less character than older VAs. Especially considering that the Microkorg and Micron are still available new and basically unchanged as well as newer variations on the same product (miniak, microkorg XL). Access basically releases upgrades on the same voice chip platform and although I’m not sure, I imagine Nord does the same.

To me this is akin to calling a late 90’s Honda Civic vintage and trying to justify how it is somehow better than a newer civic. I mean I can totally understand if you like a particular VA that is no longer in production but that’s really more about personal preference than some magic point in time when great VAs were produced but are no longer… Also you really have to consider how stupid it sounds to call a product that is still mass produced and available in almost any music store “vintage”.
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Re: "Vintage" VA synths

Post by otto » Fri May 01, 2009 7:22 pm

ryryoftokyo wrote:often times I feel as if my AN1x sounds more analog than most actual analogs.
#-o

Wow, more analog than analog? I'm starting to feel like this whole thread is a big sarcast piss-take at my expense... Only, what is worse is that I don't think this is the case.

#-o
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Re: "Vintage" VA synths

Post by Gianni » Fri May 01, 2009 7:34 pm

tallowwaters wrote:
Architecture wrote:thanks to a certain person who we wont name, messed up our post numbers.
Jesus? Allah? Jah?
Voldemort? :D


-----

On topic: I'm a VA fan. At least on my experience for live use, you just can take a Jup + effects on stage and wait for it to be all stable all the time, or save you room for moving more freely and getting more stuff to a smaller stage. And good VAs can also work on studio, I'm recording my new band's first album and I'm recording most stuff on softsynths and VAs actually.

But I don't think age has anything to do with character, it's just how well-designed was the synthesizer. AN1x is almost ten years old, and Ion/Micron are five, but they both have character and versatility and are my favorite; and every synth has its particular differences making it really hard to define age-based differences and particularly in such a small time period.

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Re: "Vintage" VA synths

Post by aeon » Fri May 01, 2009 7:35 pm

Architecture wrote:yea I was just wanting to start a discussion too, but it just didnt translate over on this forum. I didnt expect to cause such an uproar on what I thought was an innocent discussion.
Given the nature of your opening post, with its degree of hyperbole, I am not surprised. My sense is that some would read it and think and feel you were trolling, regardless of your intent. That can happen when one makes personal value statements in a generalized, objective manner.
otto wrote:To me this is akin to calling a late 90’s Honda Civic vintage and trying to justify how it is somehow better than a newer civic. I mean I can totally understand if you like a particular VA that is no longer in production but that’s really more about personal preference than some magic point in time when great VAs were produced but are no longer… Also you really have to consider how stupid it sounds to call a product that is still mass produced and available in almost any music store “vintage”.
Agreed, otto - some of the synths in question may be a dozen-plus years old, but they are hardly vintage. That is why I used quotes when I started the original thread on GS, e.g., "vintage," so as to make an ironic point about the passing of time and the nature of fashion as it concerns technology.

I think something got lost in translation and migration. :wink:


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Re: "Vintage" VA synths

Post by otto » Fri May 01, 2009 7:47 pm

Exactly, I don't think the intent of your original GS post was really the intent of this thread. The intent of this thread is a problem that needs to be delt with, with extreme prejudice.
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Re: "Vintage" VA synths

Post by masstronaut » Fri May 01, 2009 7:49 pm

When talking about wine, which is where the term comes from, vintage really just refers to any given period you might be describing, it doesn't necessarily mean old or really good.

And the quotes and admitted irony were here in this thread too.

Really this thread just looks to me like someone expressing some enthusiasm for something and sharing it, I'm surprised it's so controversial but I suppose some people quite literally have a lot invested in an idea of what 'vintage' means.

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Re: "Vintage" VA synths

Post by otto » Fri May 01, 2009 8:01 pm

To be honest I see very little irony in this thread and an attempt to use a hyped word (vintage) as some kind of justification to give value to VAs. I think this is absolutely unnecessary. I doubt you’ll find very many people, even on a vintage synth forum who can’t see value in VAs. They don’t need to be hyped with errant terminology. Outside of wine (and I don’t think synthesizers qualify as wine) vintage is generally applied to some of age or maturity. I don’t think VAs have been around long enough and the only value I see in trying to use that tag is some misguided hipster intent to place additional value in something because an individual is too insecure to take it at face value and like it for what it is.
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Re: "Vintage" VA synths

Post by ryryoftokyo » Fri May 01, 2009 8:06 pm

otto wrote:
ryryoftokyo wrote:often times I feel as if my AN1x sounds more analog than most actual analogs.
#-o

Wow, more analog than analog? I'm starting to feel like this whole thread is a big sarcast piss-take at my expense... Only, what is worse is that I don't think this is the case.

#-o
I should be more clear...to me, it sounds more analog than many of the new analogs such as the Moog LP, DSI, etc...h**l, even some "vintage" analogs don't quite behave the same way.

But I guess it depends on what analog is to you in regards to sound. I mean, yes, analog in the end is just a sound produced by the actual components of the board, but to me, a board that sounds analog sounds huge and almost unstable...many of the newer analog synths and some vintage ones, are a bit too well behaved and just lack the ability to produce a truly big sound.

Although I still maintain that I can make a Minimoog weep with my AN1x...

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Re: "Vintage" VA synths

Post by masstronaut » Fri May 01, 2009 8:18 pm

otto wrote:To be honest I see very little irony in this thread and an attempt to use a hyped word (vintage) as some kind of justification to give value to VAs. I think this is absolutely unnecessary. I doubt you’ll find very many people, even on a vintage synth forum who can’t see value in VAs. They don’t need to be hyped with errant terminology. Outside of wine (and I don’t think synthesizers qualify as wine) vintage is generally applied to some of age or maturity. I don’t think VAs have been around long enough and the only value I see in trying to use that tag is some misguided hipster intent to place additional value in something because an individual is too insecure to take it at face value and like it for what it is.
You think Architecture is trying to 'give value' to old VA synths by talking about them? Well you know, on the one hand, so what? Should we only engage in er, not giving value to things? But in any case how exactly is this distinguishable from expressing appreciation and sharing enthusiasm? Do you think he has a massive warehouse full of 1st gen VAs and a vested interest in 'hyping' them? I don't know, maybe.

The irony in using the word "vintage" is admitted upfront with those scare quotes and right there in the first line of this thread - 'I know that sound ironic but its something that has got me thinking. There is without any doubt that the first generation VA's have quite a different sound from the newer VA's or softsynths on the market.'

I don't see a problem with the basic premise or original tone of this thread. There's value in all things that make a sound as long as you don't expect them to be something other than what they are.

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Re: "Vintage" VA synths

Post by Architecture » Fri May 01, 2009 8:34 pm

I should have used the word "older" instead of vintage. There was a reason why I put quotations around vintage that no one has seemed to noticed. I wasnt saying that they are vintage, I used that term to signify a difference from the new breeds and the old first gen breeds.

Me trying to get value out of these things? Hardly. I want them to say where they are, i like cheap :D.

now regarding someones post reguarding the Moog LP, the Moog LP has to be my favorate mono synthesizer to date. I have gotten quite deep and big sounds out of that machine that nearly blew speakers (ask Zamise, he saw).

I think newer VA's are great too. They have come along way since the first VA's in the field of emulation, if thats what your going for. But what I like about the older VA's is the fact that they didnt exactly emulate analog 100 percent. They still dont, but what I am liking now is that the newer VA's are incorproating more far out things in their synth engines, prime example Virus TI. Some of the older out of production VA's have a unique flavor.

I think what it is, is this. The D/A conversion, or A/D conversion. Just like people buy a S1000 over an S3000XL, or a S950 for that matter, there not buying the limited sample ram (usually), they are buying the sound of their converters. its the CONVERTERS that make the sound different.

And for live shows, I would have to say I rather take a VA than my Andromeda live any day. Although I did do a show with almost straight up analog, I must have been lucky that nothing went out of tune that night. Just watch JMJ freaking out over his memory moog going out of tune, that was enough for me to go with VA's for live performance.

but, there IS nothing like a 909 live.

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Re: "Vintage" VA synths

Post by otto » Fri May 01, 2009 8:39 pm

ryryoftokyo wrote:
otto wrote:
ryryoftokyo wrote:often times I feel as if my AN1x sounds more analog than most actual analogs.
#-o

Wow, more analog than analog? I'm starting to feel like this whole thread is a big sarcast piss-take at my expense... Only, what is worse is that I don't think this is the case.

#-o


But I guess it depends on what analog is to you in regards to sound.
I think that is the problem with your logic. It seems to me that you think analog means “good sound” when it actually refers to how the synth was made. I’m completely ok with the idea that your prefer the sound of your AN1X to a minimoog. Good for you. However saying it sounds more analog than analog is like saying a plastic plant is more real than a real plant. There are serious flaws in your logic or understanding of what analog is. What you really mean to say is that you prefer the sound of a VA to analog not that a VA sounds more analog than analog.

Really this underscores the whole reason I’m annoyed at applying the word vintage to something that is, in fact, not vintage. Your just bastardizing a term into meaninglessness. Which I suppose, is part or whole of post-modernism, but that’s a different tangent. Words have meaning for a reason. When you use a word incorrectly it is just an inherent misunderstanding of the word. Continuing to misuse a word is just that, the word doesn’t suddenly change meaning because it is convenient or you just don’t understand it.
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