Do you aknowledge the importance of dance music

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Re: Do you aknowledge the importance of dance music

Post by meatballfulton » Tue Jun 23, 2009 5:24 pm

Soundwave wrote:All in all it can be said that dance music today is by far the most mainstream widespread form of electronic music thats ever been which also covers endless sub genres and that it draws more influence from the experimental innovation of the 70's than the synth pop/rock fad of the 80's which was essentially the same old musical format done with electronic sounds instead of gutiar, organ ect to give it a new flavor.
The instrument design also showed this when you compare the modulars of the 70's and the revolutionary digital synths of the early 80's which then got washed down into a more commercially viable 'keyboard' package to your 'ten a penny' letterbox LCD ROMpler of the late 80's-early 90's.
ROTFL =D>

It's all in your perspective I guess. The primary influences to EDM that I hear are:

1. DISCO informing the rhythm, harmony and melody

2. 70s/80s synth sounds informing the sound design

I don't hear much innovation in the synth sounds themselves (how many ways can you filter a sawtooth after all) but I do hear lots of processing innovations (bitcrushing, beat-slicing, etc.).

I don't know why you use the derogatory term "commercially viable 'keyboard' package to your 'ten a penny' letterbox LCD ROMpler" as these machines are very powerful synthesizers even if you don't care for them. We now take for granted access to sampled waveforms, sweepable wavetables, etc. alongside the traditional analog waveforms, integrated FX processing, multiple filters, CC control, etc. Perhaps most importantly MIDI clocking to synch everything together...sequencers, arpeggiators, LFOs, FX, etc...which is central to EDM production methods. All of this was driven largely by ROMpler evolution.

EDM is far from the only driver for synths. How about "new age" music? Before that devolved into a glut of elevator music there was a lot of innovation and interesting stuff happening in that genre. How about movie soundtracks and TV commercials? How about the real underground of electronic music, like laptop artists collaborating with avant-garde composers, jazz musicians and modern dance choreogaphers? How about the ongoing prog-rock and prog-metal scenes? You want to talk about real innovation in sound design, check out the latest blockbusters at the local cineplex.

I don't think EDM has much to do with the resurgence of analog modulars. The slow decline of the groovebox market suggests to me that EDM is moving further into the software arena every day.
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Re: Do you aknowledge the importance of dance music

Post by meatballfulton » Tue Jun 23, 2009 5:34 pm

Yatmandu wrote:Maybe electronic music didn't start in 1987, but it certainly strarted getting interesting and compelling in 1987...I dunno, I think Ishkur's guide is not too shabby personally. It might do nothing for you, but I think others here might enjoy it.
What was so special about 1987? Curious as what you see the watershed moment to be.

Sorry I'm just an old f*cker and found plenty of compelling electronic music when I was in high school in the late 60s. Frank Zappa was my gateway because he liked to discuss his influences and methods of working in liner notes of his albums. I just started following up on what he wrote about and one link led to another. I was building PAiA kits and hot-rodding my mom's Lowrey organ back in the 70s because that was all I could afford. Back before the internet finding out about experimental music was a real adventure, traveling from one record store to another in search of the next rarity.
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Re: Do you aknowledge the importance of dance music

Post by Yatmandu » Tue Jun 23, 2009 5:53 pm

meatballfulton wrote:
Yatmandu wrote:Maybe electronic music didn't start in 1987, but it certainly strarted getting interesting and compelling in 1987...I dunno, I think Ishkur's guide is not too shabby personally. It might do nothing for you, but I think others here might enjoy it.
What was so special about 1987? Curious as what you see the watershed moment to be.

Sorry I'm just an old f*cker and found plenty of compelling electronic music when I was in high school in the late 60s. Frank Zappa was my gateway because he liked to discuss his influences and methods of working in liner notes of his albums. I just started following up on what he wrote about and one link led to another. I was building PAiA kits and hot-rodding my mom's Lowrey organ back in the 70s because that was all I could afford. Back before the internet finding out about experimental music was a real adventure, traveling from one record store to another in search of the next rarity.
Basically, this happened. Second summer of love: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acid_house, got the ball rolling on all the different genres of edm, rave, techno, house, etc.

Zappa rocks! Just listened to Joe's Garage the other day on a long drive.

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Re: Do you aknowledge the importance of dance music

Post by CapnMarvel » Tue Jun 23, 2009 6:50 pm

Much like electronic dance music, this thread is pedantic, argumentative, repetitive, and lacks soul and original ideas.

I acknowledge this thread! :mrgreen:
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Re: Do you aknowledge the importance of dance music

Post by Soundwave » Wed Jun 24, 2009 2:42 am

meatballfulton wrote: ROTFL =D>

It's all in your perspective I guess. The primary influences to EDM that I hear are:

1. DISCO informing the rhythm, harmony and melody

2. 70s/80s synth sounds informing the sound design

I don't hear much innovation in the synth sounds themselves (how many ways can you filter a sawtooth after all) but I do hear lots of processing innovations (bitcrushing, beat-slicing, etc.).
I'm sorry but it appears your knowledge and understanding of the innovations of dance music is slightly limited.

Get back to me when you heard a few Cylob or Pete Namlook albums. :roll:

meatballfulton wrote: I don't know why you use the derogatory term "commercially viable 'keyboard' package to your 'ten a penny' letterbox LCD ROMpler" as these machines are very powerful synthesizers even if you don't care for them. We now take for granted access to sampled waveforms, sweepable wavetables, etc. alongside the traditional analog waveforms, integrated FX processing, multiple filters, CC control, etc. Perhaps most importantly MIDI clocking to synch everything together...sequencers, arpeggiators, LFOs, FX, etc...which is central to EDM production methods. All of this was driven largely by ROMpler evolution.
Yes but all theses features were hidden away in impenetrable menus and cost cutting interfaces with often a list of exotic and useless features to disguise the fact that you can only do so much with ROM waves and bland digital filters. Name me one groundbreaking or influential sound that the K2000 ever did?
The analogue revival wasn't just about the sound but also the hands on interface.

With the exception of the JD800 dance music has had more an infulence on ROMlper design than anything else as the manufacturers were cashing in on a market that wasnt being controlled by 'the gadget of the week' syndrome but more a chemically fueled youth sub culture like the rock of the 60's.
meatballfulton wrote: EDM is far from the only driver for synths. How about "new age" music? Before that devolved into a glut of elevator music there was a lot of innovation and interesting stuff happening in that genre. How about movie soundtracks and TV commercials? How about the real underground of electronic music, like laptop artists collaborating with avant-garde composers, jazz musicians and modern dance choreogaphers? How about the ongoing prog-rock and prog-metal scenes? You want to talk about real innovation in sound design, check out the latest blockbusters at the local cineplex.
What manufacturer has made any synth geared specifically towards New Age music? In fact 'New Age' is guilty of more presets than any other form of electronic music I can think of which usually consists of the generic synth pad and strings ROMpler presets, what innovative sound design hes this genre of music ever influenced?

Movie soundtracks and TV commercials use pre packaged ROM software and experimental avant-garde has to avoid any conventional methods by its very nature so no one will ever be producing commercial equipment especially for them.
meatballfulton wrote: I don't think EDM has much to do with the resurgence of analog modulars. The slow decline of the groovebox market suggests to me that EDM is moving further into the software arena every day.

Entry level groovebox design is obsolete because of better software which is the staple ingredient for almost all modern studios/producers however Elektron's are still one of the most desirable bits of kit out there it's just the fact that grooveboxes are a little more serious these days, lets not forget, the EM1X, Sepctralis, Origin and Future Retro gear.

The Prodigy, Daft Punk, The Chemical Bros, Aphex Twin, Fatboy Slim have all sold millions with the only other none dance electronic artists in the same league sales wise are Jarre & Kraftwerk and that's before we even get into the DJ/Club culture.

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Re: Do you aknowledge the importance of dance music

Post by otto » Wed Jun 24, 2009 3:02 am

meatballfulton wrote: I don't think EDM has much to do with the resurgence of analog modulars. The slow decline of the groovebox market suggests to me that EDM is moving further into the software arena every day.
Or possibly a loss in interest in making that type of music.
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Re: Do you aknowledge the importance of dance music

Post by Stab Frenzy » Wed Jun 24, 2009 3:19 am

Soundwave wrote:The Prodigy, Daft Punk, The Chemical Bros, Aphex Twin, Fatboy Slim have all sold millions with the only other none dance electronic artists in the same league sales wise are Jarre & Kraftwerk and that's before we even get into the DJ/Club culture.
???

Have you ever looked at the singles charts? The music that's selling the most records at the moment is the R&B/Urban genre, which is pretty much 100% synths. Beyonce or Black Eyed Peas or Kanye sell a crapload more records of 'non dance elcetronic music' than anybody you've mentioned, and spawn a crapload more imitators.

Not that this has anything to do with the topic, just wanted to point out how wrong you are. :)

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Re: Do you aknowledge the importance of dance music

Post by otto » Wed Jun 24, 2009 3:24 am

ding ding ding... What is in our prizebox for señor frenesí puñalada?
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Re: Do you aknowledge the importance of dance music

Post by meatballfulton » Wed Jun 24, 2009 3:45 am

Soundwave wrote:Get back to me when you heard a few Cylob or Pete Namlook albums.
Cylob no, but Pete Namlook I have heard. In fact I've heard a lot of music and when I hear things that remind me of music I've heard in the past I perceive them as derivative rather than revolutionary.
Soundwave wrote:Name me one groundbreaking or influential sound that the K2000 ever did?
I agree about the K2000 but have you forgetten the D50 and M1? Heck, house music is still using that damn M1 piano.
Soundwave wrote:experimental avant-garde has to avoid any conventional methods by its very nature so no one will ever be producing commercial equipment especially for them.
Except for Moog, ARP, EMS, Buchla, NED, Fairlight, E-Mu and Serge I guess.
Soundwave wrote:The Prodigy, Daft Punk, The Chemical Bros, Aphex Twin, Fatboy Slim have all sold millions with the only other none dance electronic artists in the same league sales wise are Jarre & Kraftwerk and that's before we even get into the DJ/Club culture.
Yeah, selling millions means what? Madonna, Beyonce and Mariah Carey sell many times what those EDM artists do and their albums are awash in synths so why aren't they what's driving the synth market?

I'm not sure why you are arguing so strenuously, pop a Prozac and chill a bit will ya? Like AG wrote, history isn't going anywhere so maybe you should check it out.

This is a great thread!!!! =D>
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Re: Do you aknowledge the importance of dance music

Post by meatballfulton » Wed Jun 24, 2009 4:16 am

OK I went to listen to some Cylob, and yeah he reminds me of disco...uptempo, lots of four on the floor kick drum, simple frothy melodies, lots of repetition. Why not, it is supposed to be dance music for the clubs right?
I listened to Hatfield and the North at Rainbow. They were very wonderful and they made my heart a prisoner.

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Re: Do you aknowledge the importance of dance music

Post by meatballfulton » Wed Jun 24, 2009 4:31 am

OK, I know Wikipedia is not the final authority on anything but look up Electronic Dance Music and you will read:

Electronic dance music is a broad set of percussive music genres that largely inherit from 1970s disco music and, to some extent, the experimental pop music of Kraftwerk.
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Re: Do you aknowledge the importance of dance music

Post by Automatic Gainsay » Wed Jun 24, 2009 4:45 am

meatballfulton wrote:OK I went to listen to some Cylob, and yeah he reminds me of disco...uptempo, lots of four on the floor kick drum, simple frothy melodies, lots of repetition. Why not, it is supposed to be dance music for the clubs right?
Shhh, meatball, shhh... we're old men. We're not to be listened to, even though we were alive, cognizant, and musical during the times which all of the younger people feel they must so fervently defend... despite not being alive then. :wink:

Also, Wikipedia, although likely written by a 15 year old, is not to be questioned. It's in PRINT, and ON THE INTERNET. What more validity do you need? Jeez.
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Re: Do you aknowledge the importance of dance music

Post by RobotHeroes » Wed Jun 24, 2009 5:46 am

Automatic Gainsay wrote:
meatballfulton wrote:OK I went to listen to some Cylob, and yeah he reminds me of disco...uptempo, lots of four on the floor kick drum, simple frothy melodies, lots of repetition. Why not, it is supposed to be dance music for the clubs right?
Shhh, meatball, shhh... we're old men. We're not to be listened to, even though we were alive, cognizant, and musical during the times which all of the younger people feel they must so fervently defend... despite not being alive then. :wink:

Also, Wikipedia, although likely written by a 15 year old, is not to be questioned. It's in PRINT, and ON THE INTERNET. What more validity do you need? Jeez.
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Re: Do you aknowledge the importance of dance music

Post by Soundwave » Wed Jun 24, 2009 10:45 am

Modern day Rap and R&B have nicked more loops and rhythms from dance/electro music than anything else and other other big commercial acts by their very nature aren't pioneering sound design in any way as they just throw lots of money to the cream of the dance crowd e.g. William Orbit, BT, Oakenfold for the token remix or production.

Any can anyone name me any notable avant garde artist who use big modulars in the last 10yrs? Experimental electronic artists use MAX/map and other modular software these days.

Why do people think I've read about dance music on a Wiki page?

I was there from the 'rave' music early 90's and give or take some generalizations most the info I've read its pretty accurate and although more software based these days (being more convenient, cheaper and a result of home PC evolution not diminished popularity) its by no means to say that 1000 of clubs around the world aren't still playing this type of music every weekend and the profound effect it's had on electronic music instruments from the early 90's. Just because it bypassed where you lived or you were a little too old to get involved you can't deny it is the biggest electronic music revolution to ever happen which has made pure electronic music mainstream, before then electronic music artists were listed under 'rock & pop' in your local record store.

For f**k sake none of you knew who Cylob was until I mentioned him yet you all seem to be experts on the subject? :lol:

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Re: Do you aknowledge the importance of dance music

Post by meatballfulton » Wed Jun 24, 2009 3:59 pm

Soundwave wrote:you can't deny it is the biggest electronic music revolution to ever happen which has made pure electronic music mainstream, before then electronic music artists were listed under 'rock & pop' in your local record store.
In my local record stores, they are listed under "dance". Except the non-dance artists who are still under "rock/pop". That is, when I can even find any CDs... :? The real mainstreaming was in the 1970s when records like Autobahn, Gary Wright's Dream Weaver, Gary Numan's Cars, Lipps Inc.'s Funkytown, etc. went into the top 40. That fueled demand amongst mainstream musicians for synths and that demand has grown over time to the point where you now have amateurs working at home with technology like Acid, Fruity Loops and Garageband oblivious to how it evolved.
Soundwave wrote:For f**k sake none of you knew who Cylob was until I mentioned him yet you all seem to be experts on the subject? :lol:
Do you know who Raymond Scott, Bebe Barron, Morton Subotnick, Malcolm Cecil or Larry Fast are? :wink:

PS I hope you don't think I'm being serious about all this...just having fun being a crotchety old geek :lol:

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