Do you aknowledge the importance of dance music

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Re: Do you aknowledge the importance of dance music

Post by shaft9000 » Tue Jun 16, 2009 7:18 am

otto wrote:
shaft9000 wrote: it's totally cool that our imaginations work differently. :thumbup:
I'm not sure what this sentance means, please elaborate.
i find it far more appealing to be moving my body to music while in the presence of young women than a bunch of pubescent, self-appointed 'hardcore' boys that can't even keep a f**k job for a week.
i was into Dead Kennedies, Minor Threat, MDC, DRI, Circle j**k etc for a time, but it (dog-like 'hardcore' behavior) got very old very once I experienced some niiiice p***y.
i guess i was lucky to have some options - as some of the guys that I knew from the punk scene still keep at it and man they are ragged these days.
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Re: Do you aknowledge the importance of dance music

Post by Stab Frenzy » Tue Jun 16, 2009 8:04 am

Yoozer wrote:...as much as leasing a Ferrari is for rappers.
Fixed that for you. ;)

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Re: Do you aknowledge the importance of dance music

Post by Computer Controlled » Tue Jun 16, 2009 8:09 am

shaft9000 wrote:
otto wrote:
shaft9000 wrote: it's totally cool that our imaginations work differently. :thumbup:
I'm not sure what this sentance means, please elaborate.
i find it far more appealing to be moving my body to music while in the presence of young women than a bunch of pubescent, self-appointed 'hardcore' boys that can't even keep a f**k job for a week.
i was into Dead Kennedies, Minor Threat, MDC, DRI, Circle j**k etc for a time, but it (dog-like 'hardcore' behavior) got very old very once I experienced some niiiice p***y.
i guess i was lucky to have some options - as some of the guys that I knew from the punk scene still keep at it and man they are ragged these days.
I'm still loving the Dead Kennedys =o]
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Re: Do you aknowledge the importance of dance music

Post by otto » Tue Jun 16, 2009 4:29 pm

shaft9000 wrote:
otto wrote:
shaft9000 wrote: it's totally cool that our imaginations work differently. :thumbup:
I'm not sure what this sentance means, please elaborate.
i find it far more appealing to be moving my body to music while in the presence of young women than a bunch of pubescent, self-appointed 'hardcore' boys that can't even keep a f**k job for a week.
i was into Dead Kennedies, Minor Threat, MDC, DRI, Circle j**k etc for a time, but it (dog-like 'hardcore' behavior) got very old very once I experienced some niiiice p***y.
i guess i was lucky to have some options - as some of the guys that I knew from the punk scene still keep at it and man they are ragged these days.
Ha, maybe I deserved that a little from my dancing comment.

... Still not sure what imagination has to do with anything...

However, first I never said I was still into the hardcore scene. I have friends who are still into it and I’ll be the first to admit it is something you should grow out of (I feel the same about dance/rave culture). There’s nothing graceful about being 30+ in any scene that is primarily made up of people under 24 or so. I haven’t been to a hardcore show in 7 or 8 years actually. Everyone I was around in the hardcore scene were just as “employed” as anyone else. Actually, all the people I know that were big into raves and such are unemployed junkies in and out of jail to this day. Whereas most of my friends from the hardcore days lead fairly normal, employed lives. And to be fair about disclosure I also know some hardcore guys that went to prison due to violent tendencies (most are out and have moved on). I had girlfriends as a “hardcore kid” and as did most of my friends but our scene was thriving at the time which might be different from your experience.

Of course I can’t paint everyone with the same brush and I imagine there are regional differences that come into play as well. In my area the primary purpose of dance/rave culture was to facilitate drug use. At the time Hardcore was undergoing a major resurgence and our scene in particular was thriving. I don’t imagine it would be the same today and if I were a teenager right now I’d probably be into something else. Really that was the ultimate point of my post. We all had “magical” moment in our youth that we reminisce about and probably put more value in them than they objectively deserve. In my case maybe that is hardcore, in your case and the initiator of the thread, it appears to be electronic dance music.

To get back to relevancy in this thread, I don’t think some analog companies such as Future Retro would exist without dance music. Obviously there would not have been so many TB-303 clones without it as well. I really enjoy the Access Virus line and it seems to me that their motivation and focus leans towards dance music even though the synths are very useful outside of that. I see an equal amount of synth stuff going on that seems to have little to do with dance music. I don’t see moogs and DSI instruments as particularly dance oriented synths. I think a strong interest in analog synths would exist and does exist without dance music. Some artists I enjoy were obviously influenced by dance music and or were part of creating it in the first place so no things would be the same but again you can say that about so many influences that it is really difficult to give one genre any kind of reigning importance.
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Re: Do you aknowledge the importance of dance music

Post by shaft9000 » Tue Jun 16, 2009 4:35 pm

otto wrote: our scene was thriving at the time which might be different from your experience.

Of course I can’t paint everyone with the same brush and I imagine there are regional differences that come into play as well.
you nailed it...sounds like your hardcore scene was a LOT more healthy than mine.
in fact 9 of my friends/people i knew in/around that scene died in a car crash less than a mile from my home - while still in high school. 9 kids all piled into a pickup truck with no seatbelts on, and 2 of them were really sweet girls i knew pretty well. i had to move on.

thanks for being civil and challenging at the same time. that's rare these days.

funny thing about this thread, is that i don't think of dance tracks being 'music' per se.
it's a sound environment more than anything - made for the dancefloor...to me it usually sounds bad played as 'singles', especially on the radio, and the perception is entirely different when dancing vs. sitting or just standing there "listening". kind of absurd, really.
the arc and thrust and intermingling of sounds takes on very different "values"(i need a better word there) when you're already moving along. it's not even the same thing as "this song makes me want to dance" to me....it's the blending, cutting and contrasts between tracks in a set that get me stoked...and if the performer can Tell A Story with music - even if there's no words at all.

A truly excellent DJ set can be a lot like jazz improvisation. Early 90's San Francisco area house DJ's Jeno, Derrick Cater and Mark Farina mixes are examples of this. some 'turntablists' certainly qualify as well, if more blatantly obvious.
------------------------
on a sidenote...i'm getting tired of everybody sidechaining every track and compressing mixes all to s**t these days...and AutoTune must die....that f**k Cher song did more to defeat the spread of good dance music than anything i can think of
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Re: Do you aknowledge the importance of dance music

Post by Electroluver » Tue Jun 16, 2009 6:30 pm

Dance music has played an integral role in the continued popularity of analog synthesizers. Other genres like Hip Hop have also incorporated analog synths, though not anywhere near the extent of House/Electro/Breaks/Trance/Etc.
I'm a dance music freak.

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Re: Do you aknowledge the importance of dance music

Post by Yoozer » Tue Jun 16, 2009 6:37 pm

Stab Frenzy wrote:
Yoozer wrote:...as much as leasing a Ferrari is for rappers.
Fixed that for you. ;)
True. The artist is rich; the producer behind him is wealthy.
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Re: Do you aknowledge the importance of dance music

Post by Yatmandu » Tue Jun 16, 2009 9:32 pm

I agree with Elektroluver: EDM (with all its variants, including: ambient, acid, techno, detroit, house, rave, jungle, d&b, minimal, dub/step and even tarnce(lol)) has had more influence in the popularity of analog (and digital) synthesizers than probably all other forms of music combined!

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Re: Do you aknowledge the importance of dance music

Post by Automatic Gainsay » Wed Jun 17, 2009 3:15 am

Sometimes I think the internet allows electronic music makers to have a somewhat skewed view of music as a whole.

Synthesizers have been avidly used by most genres of music... especially in the last decade.

Modern analog (which plainly DOES contain some aspects aimed at the dance crowd) would look a lot different if it was aimed entirely at the dance crowd... different functionality, different form factor, etc. In general, companies who make modern analog are trying to make it attractive to music makers from several genres... and as such, prove that it isn't just the dance crowd which has kept it aloft.
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Re: Do you aknowledge the importance of dance music

Post by Yatmandu » Wed Jun 17, 2009 4:32 am

While I agree that a lot of genres use the synthesizer to add flavour to their music, in techno the synth is front and center. I think your typical high-end EDM producer knows more about synthesis than just about any other music maker out there (Note: I said synthesis, not playing the keys!). In techno the synth and the drum machine are the main course, not a side-dish. Ok, of course there are the originators like Tangerine Dream, JMJ, etc. But I stand by my quote, in today's world "EDM (with all its variants, including: ambient, acid, techno, detroit, house, rave, jungle, d&b, minimal, dub/step and even tarnce(lol)) has had more influence in the popularity of analog (and digital) synthesizers than probably all other forms of music combined!"

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Re: Do you aknowledge the importance of dance music

Post by Automatic Gainsay » Wed Jun 17, 2009 7:53 am

Yatmandu wrote:While I agree that a lot of genres use the synthesizer to add flavour to their music, in techno the synth is front and center.
Well, there certainly are a lot of genres which use synth for flavor.
There are other genres where synth is a valid contributing instrument, like the rest of the instruments.
And, of course there are genres where the synth is front-and-center.
You do realize, though... that there are genres where the synth was/is front-and-center which predate any of the genres you mentioned?
Yatmandu wrote:I think your typical high-end EDM producer knows more about synthesis than just about any other music maker out there (Note: I said synthesis, not playing the keys!).
I'm not saying it's not true, but why do you think it to be true? Of all the genres which use synthesizers, I'm not sure that dance music is the one where the most creative synth patches are created.
Is there anyone here who is a "typical high-end EDM producer?"
Is that "greatest synthesists of all time" thread still around here somewhere?
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Re: Do you aknowledge the importance of dance music

Post by nvbrkr » Wed Jun 17, 2009 8:43 am

I wonder how many dance music -oriented musicians jumped into buying Minimoogs and other non-MIDI synths from the 70s at the eariler days of the "analog revival", only to realize later on that they're really going to need the MIDI? Sure, CV's an option but people tend to get tired of all the inconveniences and incompability issues. My impression on most dance music guys I've known is that they prefer their setups with the units pretty firmly hooked to each other. Also, issues like a filter on some unit being "noisy" seems to be more of an issue (wtf).

I would say according to my own observations that currently the biggest group of buyers for analog synths are simply people who are primarily interested in music styles of past decades. May that be 80s synthpop, or 70s prog, funk, fusion-jazz, whatever. Most experimental musicians won't even touch digital and that's basically the group that's intered in building modulars or those DIY noise synths - and that's far more people than you think. Seems like some of the guys who also play in cover bands have indulged themselves in getting some classic boards. I don't think there's much doubt that dance musicians would be still the prime target audience for VAs.

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Re: Do you aknowledge the importance of dance music

Post by otto » Wed Jun 17, 2009 8:16 pm

I’m not sure I buy the comment that EDM is more responsible for interest in synths than “all other music genres combined”. I might be persuaded that it is more responsible than any other singular genre (and I still think that might be a stretch) but I think you might have an over-inflated idea of how big EDM is. If you ask the average, random person who Aphex Twin is you will probably get a blank stare. Wheras if you ask them if they are aware of Depeche Mode or NIN, most everyone has at least heard of these bands. I honestly wouldn’t be surprised if one of these bands individually sales more of a single album than all the sales on the biggest EDM label combined.

Let’s not forget there was a big boost of indie-ish bands in the early 2000’s that were doing the retro 80’s thing with synths such as The Killers, yeah yeah yeahs, Bravery, etc. Synths are still really big in indie music although trends have generally moved away from such obvious 80’s re-treads. There are still a lot of fairly large indie groups that primarily focus on synths, Bat for Lashes and MIA immediately come to mind. There are also a lot of bands that kinda tread the line such as Air, Ladytron, Fujiya & Miyagi who I feel exist more in the realm of dance music inspired indie-pop than pure EDM.

Also you have a rich history of music. I mean the Beatles, the Beach Boys and Pink Floyd used synths. There is a rich use of synths in psychedelic music, particularly Krautrock. Kraftwerk is such an inspiration to many, including EDM. Early to current hip-hop/rap. Synth-pop was huge and has made a big comeback with both imitators and original acts releasing new stuff. Industrial was really big for a while in the 90’s and seems to always have some following. Post-punk like Gary Numan and Joy Division have a big following. Prog rock seems to have a fairly large following among older synth-rockers. I’ve noticed a lot of metal and scream bands have incorporated synths. They are everywhere.
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Re: Do you aknowledge the importance of dance music

Post by nvbrkr » Wed Jun 17, 2009 9:01 pm

Metal bands tend to be pretty happy with their romplers.

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Re: Do you aknowledge the importance of dance music

Post by nathanscribe » Wed Jun 17, 2009 9:16 pm

Has anyone mentioned the relatively short period in whcih analogue synths were not in production?

I'm being a little arbitrary here, but if you take the arrival on the market of the DX-7 as the birth of practical digital synthesis in widespread use - what, 1983? - and the seeping into the popular consciousness of electronic dance music - mid-late 80s - there's not much of a gap. Also, I'm talking about the UK. I suspect various parts of the world have different timescales.

Acid might be something that has consisted of a 303/808/909 for the last twenty years, but there's more to dance than acid, more to electronic music than dance, more to popular synth use than dance, more to synths than digital v analogue, and more to late 80s/early 90s electro than analogue, and more to the 'analogue revival' than everybody needing a 303, despite what Norman "Fatboy" Cook says.

I remember listening to dance music nearly twenty years ago that was a real mixture of electronic musical instrument types and production values - as has been mentioned already, samplers were in heavy use, and digital synths were also in there - LatelyBass, anyone? Just because somebody with no money picked up a 303 or whatever and decided to make new music with it doesn't make it any different to saying "the current revival of medieval music is responsible for the sale of new crumhorns" etc. It's a bit of a flaccid argument and somewhat tautological.

Certainly, the revivlal of (for example) the 303 is based on the popularity of (for example) acid, becuase people rather liked whast they heard and started buying the gear, which forced prices up, which made Novation et al start looking at manufacturing new versions, which worked and made them money, which led bigger manufacturers to take notice. But even then, romplers and digital synthesis have always been immensely popular as well.

Analogue synths never entirely went away either - check production dates, with things like the MKS going into the late 80s, and then still being only recently out of production when the 303s started making their trademark squelches in bedrooms all over - then, the 2nd hand market still consisted of a healthy mix, just as it does now. The heftily-priced-now-classic-gear was cheaper, and the specific models have changed, but there was a good spread in the classifieds.

I think the internet has had as much an influence as the music itself. Without the internet, buying gear was harder. Researching gear was harder. Selling gear was more hit & miss. Prices were not based on auction results, or hiked by a series of intense bidding wars. Disposable income has also changed. Back in the 80s, I could never have scored a decent synth for the money I had. The most I could get in 1987 was a Yamaha Portasound. Later, when I learned what was what, I paid £120 for my Juno 6 in 1991, when 303s were way below £300 (which they got to a year or two later). Don't forget also that the later analogue polys (MKS etc) and digital workstations were then recently made - and so still held their value. Also, it wasn't purely that analogues were thought to be s**t, it was that they were older and didn't have fifty good piano/string/drum sounds under a button-push. There are too many issues behind the 'current' 'analogue' 'revival' to talk of it in the very narrowly-defined limits of "EDM is responsible for the survival of synths".

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