Do you aknowledge the importance of dance music

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nvbrkr
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Re: Do you aknowledge the importance of dance music

Post by nvbrkr » Thu Jun 18, 2009 9:12 pm

Yeah, I wasn't meaning to imply that it has crossed over really anywhere outside its own borders (btw, industrial is not metal music by any means as the guitar has been basically a non-existend instrument in that musical expression for decades now - so there's the division between the black metal end of dark ambient and what is associated with industrial, albeit they converge exactly at the ambient material usually). Notable exceptions would be of course some movie soundtrack compositions.

But underlining the point of the personal perspective playing a central role - from my own perspective it would seem like there would be more dark ambient being released than so-called "regular" ambient during this decade. Marginal music genres have listeners scattered around the globe, pretty much everywhere in rather even amounts. It's still a big amount of record buyers when put together (and there are still far much more releases put out in these genres each year than in, say, funk). Metal is very popular in Northern Europe indeed, but it's not really the same folks that listen to the material I was referring to. But yeah, there's one end of "synth" music where most people into it literally despise techno by rule, or just do not simply care about it.

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Re: Do you aknowledge the importance of dance music

Post by otto » Thu Jun 18, 2009 9:17 pm

Yatmandu wrote:
otto wrote: If you want a fairly objective statistic on this question, do a poll right here on VSE. This forum is actually a perfect place because it isn’t motivated by a style of music but rather a general interest in synthesizers, analog and vintage in particular. Just make sure your question is fair and not misleading. You’ll probably want to give the poll a long length to get the largest sample as VSE isn’t particularly busy at the moment.
Did you mean this? I did miss it. Sorry, I tend to not read every single post especially if there's been a lot of activity. How would I word it? Not really sure, as everyone's definition of "techno" or "edm" is different.

Which musical genre today is responsible for generating the most interest in the synthesizer?

a. Polish Polkas
b. Industrial
c. Punk
d. Pop
e. Techno (Yatmandu's definition of techno which includes beatless ambient among all the other subgenres)
f. Classical
g. Ska
h. Metal
i. Indonesian Gamelan
j. Rock
k. Trout

Is this OK?
Well I did the poll based on your assertion that EDM has more influence than ALL other music genres. Which would include fish music or whatever…
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Re: Do you aknowledge the importance of dance music

Post by Automatic Gainsay » Fri Jun 19, 2009 3:46 am

I would just like to encourage anyone who wants to insist that electronic music, electronic dance music, synthesizers, or anything else started in 1987 to please please please crack open a history book.

Electronic music effectively began a number of times, but especially in the aughts, twenties, thirties, fifties, and sixties of the 20th century. Various forms and prototypes of the synthesizer existed as far back as 1900, 1930s, etc. 20th Century (modern classical, for those who aren't familiar with the term) composers were doing everything you think is cool as far back as the 1940s (just not quite delivered in exactly the same way, or in the same context). Delia Derbyshire should have been hailed as the Mother of All Modern Electronic Music in the 60s, when her Radiophonic experiments sounded like much of what was hailed as revolutionary by some in the 80s. Wendy Carlos has already done that which you probably think you're doing that is new. Check out her non-Bach stuff.
You are not doing yourself, or anyone coming to this forum looking to learn about music history, any favors by reading Wikipedia or some fanboy's uninformed site and screeching it as if it were established historical fact. If you want to learn about electronic music, you need to read a BOOK written by a person who was expected to do RESEARCH and published by a company who required research of the author.

Electronic music is awesome. Electronic dance music is plainly important, compelling, and wonderful. As stupid as I think naming a new genre for every time someone uses a sample, a quantizing trick, some editing, a specific key, a specific synth, etc., electronic music is interesting and valid. What makes it MORE interesting and valid is knowing where it's been, how it all happened, who did what when, and what HASN'T been done (or overdone) to death, so you can do something new and compelling.
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Re: Do you aknowledge the importance of dance music

Post by Yatmandu » Fri Jun 19, 2009 8:13 pm

Maybe electronic music didn't start in 1987, but it certainly strarted getting interesting and compelling in 1987...I dunno, I think Ishkur's guide is not too shabby personally. It might do nothing for you, but I think others here might enjoy it.

As for the history of electronic music, ok, everyone owes it to themselves to find out about the innovators, but let's face it, you're not going to want to listen to Delia Derbyshire's Radiophonic experiments for very long. Just sayin', you know what I mean? For instance, do Art Historians make the best artists? I don't think you implied that, but let's put things back into perspective a bit.

Anyway, you can always decide for yourself what's important to you as an artist, a synthesist, a musician.

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Re: Do you aknowledge the importance of dance music

Post by Automatic Gainsay » Sat Jun 20, 2009 2:05 am

Yatmandu wrote:Maybe electronic music didn't start in 1987, but it certainly strarted getting interesting and compelling in 1987...
Your opinion is valid, and of interest to many!
However, it doesn't change history. :)
Yatmandu wrote:I dunno, I think Ishkur's guide is not too shabby personally. It might do nothing for you, but I think others here might enjoy it.
Well, it's very pretty. That can be said about it.
It's not that it does nothing for me, it's that I am bothered by its inaccuracy and misleading portrayal of music history.
Yatmandu wrote:As for the history of electronic music, ok, everyone owes it to themselves to find out about the innovators, but let's face it, you're not going to want to listen to Delia Derbyshire's Radiophonic experiments for very long.
If you think that, you haven't listened to enough of them. It would be shocking to me if you, or anyone else, couldn't find a lot of threads of commonality between her work and modern electronic music.
Yatmandu wrote:Just sayin', you know what I mean? For instance, do Art Historians make the best artists? I don't think you implied that, but let's put things back into perspective a bit.
We're not talking about compositional techniques, are we? If we are, then it's still good idea to know what has been done so that you don't embarrass yourself when you crow about your CUTTING EDGE music... when it probably isn't cutting edge at all. (not you personally, of course... I've never heard your music. However, I do take offense at the notion that historians aren't good artists... :wink:)
Yatmandu wrote:Anyway, you can always decide for yourself what's important to you as an artist, a synthesist, a musician.
I can, and do... but what I can't do is decide what happened in history the way I wish it happened, think it should have happened, or theorize it happened based upon limited knowledge.
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Re: Do you aknowledge the importance of dance music

Post by Yatmandu » Sat Jun 20, 2009 6:18 am

Automatic Gainsay wrote:
Yatmandu wrote:I dunno, I think Ishkur's guide is not too shabby personally. It might do nothing for you, but I think others here might enjoy it.
Well, it's very pretty. That can be said about it.
It's not that it does nothing for me, it's that I am bothered by its inaccuracy and misleading portrayal of music history.
What inaccuracy and misleading portrayal of music history would that be? The only remark is that it's "very pretty"? Perhaps you also think every cute blonde is dumb?

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Re: Do you aknowledge the importance of dance music

Post by Syn303 » Sat Jun 20, 2009 8:30 am

Ishkur's Guide is pretty inaccurate, he seems to have forgotten a lot especially in the 70's.

Berlin School - Ambient/Sequencer/Experimental based music, all this was proto-techno, ambient, experimental. I would even call Klaus Schulze's music mantra-trance, as a lot of his long tracks were very trance like in structure. Artists like Harmonia/cluster were creating rhythms using noise generators and other custom-built electronic equipment.

Dusseldorf School - Kraftwerk, perhaps the originators of disco/techno, especially since they were making music with dance structures in them. They were ahead of their time in the early to late 70's.

70's European electronic music is responsible in many ways for what you hear today including Techno etc. One UK music magazine called Jarre the godfather of techno, which is a load of shite, Jarre's music leaned towards electronic pop, with the typical verse-chorus-verse structures.
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Re: Do you aknowledge the importance of dance music

Post by Yatmandu » Sat Jun 20, 2009 2:46 pm

Feel free to put up something better. We better shield people from these wild inaccuracies :roll: . By the way, you could easily have someone stating that Klaus Schultze should *not* be considered in the guide. This is not an earth shattering omission. The further you get away from the meat of the music, the more it is left to interpretation, especially for an artist like Schultze and his music. I am surprised Kraftwerk is not mentioned in the guide. Are you sure? This would be a very important omission IMO.

EDIT: Perhaps some of you need "The Idiots Guide to Ishkur's Guide"?

Breakbeat --> Electro (AKA Electropop, Robot Pop, Technopop) ---> 1st Song example: Kraftwerk, Radioactivity

I forgot how good Radioactivity was!!

He goes on to say:

"f**k Electro! Kraftwerk invented it in 1971! Hip hop hijacked it in 1981! And then everyone started releasing 'Hey! Remember Kraftwerk?' albums in 2001. Goes to show how much things run full circle. All electronic music everywhere pretty much owe its existance to Kraftwerk. Right next to James Brown and The Beatles, they are the most influential musicians of all time. It also doesn't hurt that robots are so totally wicked f**k awesome."

I love his style! Not some boring treatese from some historian without an ounce of rhythm in his soul. Truly a guide from someone with a deep passion for the music. Anyway, I'd like to see some of you fools put up a better guide!?!?!

OVER AND OUT

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Re: Do you aknowledge the importance of dance music

Post by Syn303 » Sat Jun 20, 2009 3:36 pm

Then i would say Klaus Schulze is an originator and a pioneer of both electronic music and trance (see his albums: timewind, moondawn and body love vol. 1 & 2)

Radioactivity which version? the original '75 version or the new mix of it on "The Mix" album. I actually thought Antenna was more dancey than the slow Radioactivity track.
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Re: Do you aknowledge the importance of dance music

Post by Yoozer » Sat Jun 20, 2009 4:04 pm

What Ishkur's guide does provide (unlike long forum topics with people going all anally retentive about dates, artists and genres) is a well-known place on the interwebs with several sound demos for each genre. .wavs say more than words.
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Re: Do you aknowledge the importance of dance music

Post by Automatic Gainsay » Sun Jun 21, 2009 3:45 am

OT: Ishkur's Guide is inaccurate and misleading in that it basically paints a sequential and causal "historical" portrait of a history which is in no way sequential or causal.
The "this lead to this lead to this" perspective is patently false. The evolution and connection of various genres of popular music is extremely complex, and cannot be portrayed as "this lead to this lead to this." On top of that, many of the connections portrayed in the guide are misleading or false.
What makes people or groups or cultures generate new genres? The variables are nearly infinite. To effectively make a case for some of these connections, one would need to engage in a doctorate-level of research, interviews, recordings, etc. But this is pseudo-sociology... faux-music history... fake documentary.
On top of these things, it, like many people in these threads, totally discount the ACTUAL history of electronic music, which starts many decades before the 70s, and had VAST influence on even what you are doing today.

What would be an awesome addition to this guide would be a categorical list of the factors which specifically and provably define each genre.

Most of all, for this evolution to be so causal and linear, each creator or creators of each genre would have to have full knowledge of and influence by the music that preceded it in Ishkur's Guide, and this just simply isn't the case. It's easy to imagine it is, but you have to remember that these genres arose not necessarily in just one place, and not necessarily by artists who were directly influenced by other artists.
If you were someone who wanted to make dance music, and I gave you a certain drum machine and certain synths, even if you had never heard electronic dance music, odds are you would do a lot of the things that artists did that led to Techno. The fact of the matter is, MANY supposed electronic genres are just people using the technology in the way it was designed to be used, which results in the sound they made. Granted, sometimes people used electronic equipment in a way it wasn't intended, but that's not the same thing as inventing something new... if a thing does something... it DOES that thing, if you catch my drift.
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Re: Do you aknowledge the importance of dance music

Post by stikygum » Sun Jun 21, 2009 5:16 am

I'm not going debating, I'm just going to say Yes I do acknowledge the importance of dance music. I always have and always will. Synths are more important than they get credit for. They've always been important in music, but I don't acknowledged properly.
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Re: Do you aknowledge the importance of dance music

Post by Yatmandu » Sun Jun 21, 2009 1:47 pm

Automatic Gainsay wrote:OT: Ishkur's Guide is inaccurate and misleading in that it basically paints a sequential and causal "historical" portrait of a history which is in no way sequential or causal.
The "this lead to this lead to this" perspective is patently false. The evolution and connection of various genres of popular music is extremely complex, and cannot be portrayed as "this lead to this lead to this." On top of that, many of the connections portrayed in the guide are misleading or false.
What makes people or groups or cultures generate new genres? The variables are nearly infinite. To effectively make a case for some of these connections, one would need to engage in a doctorate-level of research, interviews, recordings, etc. But this is pseudo-sociology... faux-music history... fake documentary.
On top of these things, it, like many people in these threads, totally discount the ACTUAL history of electronic music, which starts many decades before the 70s, and had VAST influence on even what you are doing today.

What would be an awesome addition to this guide would be a categorical list of the factors which specifically and provably define each genre.

Most of all, for this evolution to be so causal and linear, each creator or creators of each genre would have to have full knowledge of and influence by the music that preceded it in Ishkur's Guide, and this just simply isn't the case. It's easy to imagine it is, but you have to remember that these genres arose not necessarily in just one place, and not necessarily by artists who were directly influenced by other artists.
If you were someone who wanted to make dance music, and I gave you a certain drum machine and certain synths, even if you had never heard electronic dance music, odds are you would do a lot of the things that artists did that led to Techno. The fact of the matter is, MANY supposed electronic genres are just people using the technology in the way it was designed to be used, which results in the sound they made. Granted, sometimes people used electronic equipment in a way it wasn't intended, but that's not the same thing as inventing something new... if a thing does something... it DOES that thing, if you catch my drift.
You've got to be kidding me! You bring in "causality" as the reason why this guide is inaccurate? God, what a nerd. It's not a freaking physics or engineering experiment! Your reasons are cold, calculating, ridiculous, and lack the soul of what that guide was all about. Congrats.

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Re: Do you aknowledge the importance of dance music

Post by Syn303 » Sun Jun 21, 2009 1:54 pm

I still wonder why this guide has listed Tangerine Dream under Ambient, when Edgar Froese insisted TD were a Rock Group? Because originally TD started out as Rock Group (The Ones/TD). Guitars and other conventional rock instruments are used throughout their albums.
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Re: Do you aknowledge the importance of dance music

Post by Christopher Winkels » Sun Jun 21, 2009 1:56 pm

Given that we all seem to be dancing about architecture, shall I call the next tune as a waltz about art deco or a tango about neo-classicism? :wink:

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