Yamaha - enemies of synthsis!

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ItsMeOnly
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Re: Yamaha - enemies of synthsis!

Post by ItsMeOnly » Sun Nov 01, 2009 2:35 pm

Phollop Willing PA wrote:Mini Coopers and VW Beetles? Do those count?
Weren't they available as hellishy expensive preorders, too?

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Re: Yamaha - enemies of synthsis!

Post by Phollop Willing PA » Sun Nov 01, 2009 2:37 pm

ItsMeOnly wrote:
Phollop Willing PA wrote:Mini Coopers and VW Beetles? Do those count?
Weren't they available as hellishy expensive preorders, too?
Who knows? But they're here and all over the place. I see Vespas are coming back big time too.
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Re: Yamaha - enemies of synthsis!

Post by volumetrik » Sun Nov 01, 2009 2:55 pm

ItsMeOnly wrote: Now, volumetrik, the catch: how much would you be willing to spend on a synth? A synth of magnitude of CS-80, with custom components and such? Now asks yourself what would be gross price of development of a single unit. That should give you an idea why there's no new CS-80 on the market.
Well I dont think you know exactly how much it would cost and you're exaggerating. I'm guessing Yamaha
has some really talanted people and the experience they would be able to pull it off.
And it would be all very different in terms of the manufacturing etc. What custom components? Why do you
think they will be so expensive? I'm not sure if any companies relaunched their old products but look at
Marshall has relaunched their classic JCM 800 Amplifier recently it didn't flop.
Although a new exact CS-80 would be awesome, I still wish Yahama thought about making something
similar but modern because I see synths as instruments, I dont really like the computer/mouse/controller approach.

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Re: Yamaha - enemies of synthsis!

Post by Phollop Willing PA » Sun Nov 01, 2009 6:28 pm

Phollop Willing PA wrote:
.....

and don't get me started on Barbies lol...
Ok - I started:

Image

Barbie playing a Moog.

Also, maybe NSFW

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Re: Yamaha - enemies of synthsis!

Post by Ashe37 » Sun Nov 01, 2009 9:39 pm

Phollop Willing PA wrote:
CS_TBL wrote:Just sayin'... And what about Mini Coopers and VW Beetles? Do those count?
the 'new beetle' is a bad example- is primarily a Beetle-ish body slapped onto a VW Fox chassis.. (ironically, the Fox had been dropped from VW dealers in the states because it wasn't selling enough to be worth their time to make the US version and market it)

So, Yamaha should build a rompler off the Motif hardware, in a CS-80 looking shell, packed with CS-80 sounds? because that's basically the new Beetle/new Mini model... :)

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Re: Yamaha - enemies of synthsis!

Post by meatballfulton » Sun Nov 01, 2009 10:02 pm

volumetrik wrote:Well I dont think you know exactly how much it would cost and you're exaggerating. I'm guessing Yamaha has some really talanted people and the experience they would be able to pull it off.
And it would be all very different in terms of the manufacturing etc. What custom components? Why do you
think they will be so expensive? I'm not sure if any companies relaunched their old products but look at
Marshall has relaunched their classic JCM 800 Amplifier recently it didn't flop.
As a veteran electrical engineer I have to say you have no idea what you are talking about.

I'm not going to reiterate everything I have written in other similar threads but much of what makes modern electronics so inexpensive is economy of scale. When you are making thousands or millions of something, development costs are spread over all those units.

Yamaha could not possibly make any money selling 500 pieces of a new CS-80. They can make money selling Motifs, so they do.
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Re: Yamaha - enemies of synthsis!

Post by Phollop Willing PA » Sun Nov 01, 2009 10:05 pm

Ashe37 wrote:
Phollop Willing PA wrote:
CS_TBL wrote:Just sayin'... And what about Mini Coopers and VW Beetles? Do those count?
the 'new beetle' is a bad example- is primarily a Beetle-ish body slapped onto a VW Fox chassis.. (ironically, the Fox had been dropped from VW dealers in the states because it wasn't selling enough to be worth their time to make the US version and market it)

So, Yamaha should build a rompler off the Motif hardware, in a CS-80 looking shell, packed with CS-80 sounds? because that's basically the new Beetle/new Mini model... :)
Not really, more like what Moog did for the old model D into Voyager.

I was never a fan of the CS 80 (too heavy is my excuse), but I was a fan of the old Beetle.

No, I'm neither a fan of the Mini Cooper or the new Beetle. I thought that the new Beetle had too much of dashboard for my liking. You could put a buffet on it.

In fact, come to think of it, I'm not really a fan of anything Yamaha made, although I have a DX7, DX 100, SK 10 and a CS 40M. All of which I hardly use at all. I do need to modulate, however, the CS 40M to the Moogerfooger CP 251 and the Voyager though and see what happens.. Just being lazy I guess.

Now I would love a new ARP 2600 with updated technology, much the same way Moog did up the Model D in Voyager form. I would pay $ 3000 for that easily and more, not so easily.

(Mr. Pearlman, please license the ARP 2600 to someone who would do this, even Yamaha!)

As stated before, I still have concerns about outsourcing Japanese and other synths to factories in China. But if that's the only way to cut costs, well, I'll think more about it. That would help 'the economy of scale' a little.
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Re: Yamaha - enemies of synthsis!

Post by b3groover » Sun Nov 01, 2009 10:59 pm

meatballfulton wrote:
volumetrik wrote:Well I dont think you know exactly how much it would cost and you're exaggerating. I'm guessing Yamaha has some really talanted people and the experience they would be able to pull it off.
And it would be all very different in terms of the manufacturing etc. What custom components? Why do you
think they will be so expensive? I'm not sure if any companies relaunched their old products but look at
Marshall has relaunched their classic JCM 800 Amplifier recently it didn't flop.
As a veteran electrical engineer I have to say you have no idea what you are talking about.

I'm not going to reiterate everything I have written in other similar threads but much of what makes modern electronics so inexpensive is economy of scale. When you are making thousands or millions of something, development costs are spread over all those units.

Yamaha could not possibly make any money selling 500 pieces of a new CS-80. They can make money selling Motifs, so they do.
Yes, yes, and yes. Have you ever run a business, volumetrik? If the idea of re-releasing the CS-80 was profitable you can bet your a*s that Yamaha would have done it already.

The simple fact is if they even bothered to do it, the new units would be at least as expensive as the vintage ones ($12k) and probably more. So what's the point?

How many people could afford it? How many people would actually buy it?

Let's use a modern example: The New Hammond B3. It's all digital, it looks like the classic B3 of yore, it sounds really good... and it's also about $27,000. Can you afford one of those? I know I can't. They are made for the church market and that's who buys them. Would churches be interested in buying a polyphonic analog synth? I don't think so.

If you want the CS80 sound, buy a CS80. If you can't afford one, buy the CS50, CS60, or CS70. If you can't afford those then you can't afford a re-issue of the CS80 anyway, so stop your bitchin! :mrgreen:

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Re: Yamaha - enemies of synthsis!

Post by CS_TBL » Sun Nov 01, 2009 11:06 pm

Ahaa! So that's where all the collected mission money goes to: to a $27000 Hammond! I'd say, it's about time churches go virtual as well! ^^
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Re: Yamaha - enemies of synthsis!

Post by volumetrik » Mon Nov 02, 2009 12:21 am

meatballfulton wrote:
volumetrik wrote:Well I dont think you know exactly how much it would cost and you're exaggerating. I'm guessing Yamaha has some really talanted people and the experience they would be able to pull it off.
And it would be all very different in terms of the manufacturing etc. What custom components? Why do you
think they will be so expensive? I'm not sure if any companies relaunched their old products but look at
Marshall has relaunched their classic JCM 800 Amplifier recently it didn't flop.
As a veteran electrical engineer I have to say you have no idea what you are talking about.

Yamaha could not possibly make any money selling 500 pieces of a new CS-80. They can make money selling Motifs, so they do.
Ok Mr.Expert, until I actually hear from Yamaha about all this s**t I am going to assume that new CS-80s would be cheaper to make than in the past and would sell for a cheaper price too, and even if this was risky and they were to make a loss do you think it would be something catastrophic, the company would actually go bust?

Look at Volkswagen, you know the Buggati Veyron? The production cost of that car was £5 million and they were selling them for £840,000, sometimes its ok for big companies to make a loss.

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Re: Yamaha - enemies of synthsis!

Post by volumetrik » Mon Nov 02, 2009 12:25 am

b3groover wrote:
meatballfulton wrote:
volumetrik wrote:Well I dont think you know exactly how much it would cost and you're exaggerating. I'm guessing Yamaha has some really talanted people and the experience they would be able to pull it off.
And it would be all very different in terms of the manufacturing etc. What custom components? Why do you
think they will be so expensive? I'm not sure if any companies relaunched their old products but look at
Marshall has relaunched their classic JCM 800 Amplifier recently it didn't flop.
As a veteran electrical engineer I have to say you have no idea what you are talking about.

I'm not going to reiterate everything I have written in other similar threads but much of what makes modern electronics so inexpensive is economy of scale. When you are making thousands or millions of something, development costs are spread over all those units.

Yamaha could not possibly make any money selling 500 pieces of a new CS-80. They can make money selling Motifs, so they do.
Yes, yes, and yes. Have you ever run a business, volumetrik? If the idea of re-releasing the CS-80 was profitable you can bet your a*s that Yamaha would have done it already.

The simple fact is if they even bothered to do it, the new units would be at least as expensive as the vintage ones ($12k) and probably more. So what's the point?

How many people could afford it? How many people would actually buy it?
How the f**k do you know???

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Re: Yamaha - enemies of synthsis!

Post by b3groover » Mon Nov 02, 2009 12:36 am

Look, you're arguing a bunch of nonsense. Basically you're saying that Yamaha should spend hundreds of thousands of dollars to R&D and then release a new improved CS80 which only a handful of synth enthusiasts would be interested in and only a small percentage could actually afford. Of those that could afford it, only a fraction would actually buy it. And even if Yamaha loses their shirt on the project, they shouldn't care because they are a big company (because big companies get big by not caring about the bottom line?)

And if they don't do it, then they suck and are "enemies of synthesis" like the OP claims.

Do you honestly think this is a good way to run a business?

If so, I've got a lot of money tied up in a Nigerian bank that I need your help with.
volumetrik wrote:Ok Mr.Expert, until I actually hear from Yamaha about all this s**t I am going to assume that new CS-80s would be cheaper to make than in the past and would sell for a cheaper price too, and even if this was risky and they were to make a loss do you think it would be something catastrophic, the company would actually go bust?
To use your language, how the f**k do you know?

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Re: Yamaha - enemies of synthsis!

Post by Ashe37 » Mon Nov 02, 2009 2:53 am

And even if they did it, everyone would complain that they don't sound exactly the same.

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Re: Yamaha - enemies of synthsis!

Post by Automatic Gainsay » Mon Nov 02, 2009 3:07 am

The CS-80 was insanity. It was a brute force approach to synthesis, and Yamaha put an insane amount of effort and design into it. I don't have a CS-80, but I do have a CS-50. It is, without a doubt, the most well built synthesizer I have ever seen. It was created with quality materials, an absolutely fantastic interface, beauty, and incredible functionality. To be honest, I cannot imagine how Yamaha was able to make such a quality product and profit from it. Maybe they didn't. In this day and age, it's just impossible to invest so much time, effort, and quality into a product and still make a profit. A modern CS-80 would be either a pathetic parody, or a monster too expensive for anyone to afford.
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Re: Yamaha - enemies of synthsis!

Post by tekkentool » Mon Nov 02, 2009 3:10 am

Ashe37 wrote:And even if they did it, everyone would complain that they don't sound exactly the same.
naturally. RoHS would probably assure it as well.

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