Yamaha - enemies of synthsis!

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Re: Yamaha - enemies of synthsis!

Post by volumetrik » Mon Nov 02, 2009 3:12 am

b3groover wrote:Look, you're arguing a bunch of nonsense. Basically you're saying that Yamaha should spend hundreds of thousands of dollars to R&D and then release a new improved CS80 which only a handful of synth enthusiasts would be interested in and only a small percentage could actually afford.

No you're exaggerating the production costs. And you don't know for sure how many would actually buy it you just don't know this, its probably no way near as small as you think. I imagine a lot of people lost interest in these types of synths because:

a) they are not avaliable
b) they cost a fortune and are risky to buy on ebay

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Re: Yamaha - enemies of synthsis!

Post by Ashe37 » Mon Nov 02, 2009 4:12 am

volumetrik wrote:
b3groover wrote:Look, you're arguing a bunch of nonsense. Basically you're saying that Yamaha should spend hundreds of thousands of dollars to R&D and then release a new improved CS80 which only a handful of synth enthusiasts would be interested in and only a small percentage could actually afford.

No you're exaggerating the production costs. And you don't know for sure how many would actually buy it you just don't know this, its probably no way near as small as you think. I imagine a lot of people lost interest in these types of synths because:

a) they are not avaliable
b) they cost a fortune and are risky to buy on ebay
'a lot' is not enough to make a difference to Yamaha. What is the highest selling synth recently? the microkorg. Tiny. battery powered and compact. A new CS80 would use slightly more compact components, but would be monster sized if they just kept the same interface. A new interface, and its not a CS-80, now is it?

Look at their current lines- the same rompler engine with different ROM sizes and different capabilities turned off and on across the whole product range.

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Re: Yamaha - enemies of synthsis!

Post by Christopher Winkels » Mon Nov 02, 2009 1:46 pm

Automatic Gainsay wrote:To be honest, I cannot imagine how Yamaha was able to make such a quality product and profit from it. Maybe they didn't. In this day and age, it's just impossible to invest so much time, effort, and quality into a product and still make a profit.
To me, this is the nub of the problem.

Prior to the '90s, large Japanese companies had much a much looser approach to the finances of pet projects, particularly if they could rationalize the initial outlay of R&D towards other, more modest offerings. Under this model the GX-1 begat the CS-series, and the GS-1 made the DX series. That changed about 20 years ago when the Japanese economy took a nosedive from which it never truly recovered, and costs had to be better controlled. Other industries at other times were able to do this sort of thing as well: when Ford was riding high in the '60s they lavished money on the original Lincoln Continental and sold it as a loss-leader. I suppose Sony's pig-headed support of Betamax is another example.

I would imagine that Yamaha now has a much more profit-focused culture now. Good for them, bad for synthesis. Life goes on.

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Re: Yamaha - enemies of synthsis!

Post by balma » Mon Nov 02, 2009 3:46 pm

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Re: Yamaha - enemies of synthsis!

Post by meatballfulton » Tue Nov 03, 2009 12:33 am

volumetrik wrote:Ok Mr.Expert, until I actually hear from Yamaha about all this s**t I am going to assume that new CS-80s would be cheaper to make than in the past and would sell for a cheaper price too
I assure you that your assumption is wrong. The main thing that has made some electronics cheaper over time is greater integration in general and digital technology in particular. The CS-80 design being analog with lots of mechanical parts simply can't take advantage of those trends.

Yamaha (and Roland and Korg) is making the synthesizers that today's market is asking for, just like they always have.
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Re: Yamaha - enemies of synthsis!

Post by nuketifromorbit » Tue Nov 03, 2009 2:13 am

meatballfulton wrote:
volumetrik wrote:Ok Mr.Expert, until I actually hear from Yamaha about all this s**t I am going to assume that new CS-80s would be cheaper to make than in the past and would sell for a cheaper price too
I assure you that your assumption is wrong. The main thing that has made some electronics cheaper over time is greater integration in general and digital technology in particular. The CS-80 design being analog with lots of mechanical parts simply can't take advantage of those trends.

Yamaha (and Roland and Korg) is making the synthesizers that today's market is asking for, just like they always have.
How dare an electrical engineer ruin the infantile fantasies of a spergin synth nerd!

Further more synths aren't cars, your comparing two fairly different industries. Time and time again people have come forward with arguments that counter your belief and you respond with NAHUH and a refusal to listen to reason simply because it defies your belief that Yamaha is some evil soulless corporation.
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Re: Yamaha - enemies of synthsis!

Post by StepLogik » Tue Nov 03, 2009 2:59 am

meatballfulton wrote:
volumetrik wrote:Ok Mr.Expert, until I actually hear from Yamaha about all this s**t I am going to assume that new CS-80s would be cheaper to make than in the past and would sell for a cheaper price too
I assure you that your assumption is wrong. The main thing that has made some electronics cheaper over time is greater integration in general and digital technology in particular. The CS-80 design being analog with lots of mechanical parts simply can't take advantage of those trends.

...
Agreed. And, it might actually be more expensive. The cost of raw materials is on the rise, and a device with all those pots and switches, etc is going to cost a fortune to source. Even if you took the Roland approach and made the whole thing plastic and used the cheapest switches and pots you could find, you'd still be looking at an enormous raw materials cost. You might save a bit with SMT boards and implementing more of the logic in software, but you are certainly going to lose it on just about everything else.

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Re: Yamaha - enemies of synthsis!

Post by volumetrik » Tue Nov 03, 2009 3:23 am

nuketifromorbit wrote:
meatballfulton wrote:
volumetrik wrote:Ok Mr.Expert, until I actually hear from Yamaha about all this s**t I am going to assume that new CS-80s would be cheaper to make than in the past and would sell for a cheaper price too
I assure you that your assumption is wrong. The main thing that has made some electronics cheaper over time is greater integration in general and digital technology in particular. The CS-80 design being analog with lots of mechanical parts simply can't take advantage of those trends.

Yamaha (and Roland and Korg) is making the synthesizers that today's market is asking for, just like they always have.
How dare an electrical engineer ruin the infantile fantasies of a spergin synth nerd!

Further more synths aren't cars, your comparing two fairly different industries. Time and time again people have come forward with arguments that counter your belief and you respond with NAHUH and a refusal to listen to reason simply because it defies your belief that Yamaha is some evil soulless corporation.
Nah its just hard to believe that it cannot be done, considering how they manufacture things these days etc. One thing I noticed about this forum people really like their gear but anytime someone mentions of reintroducing something or making something new you get all anal with "Its impossible, too risky, too expensive, it wont sound as good, no one is going to buy it etc" alright, keep it up until the day all your vintage gear dies.

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Re: Yamaha - enemies of synthsis!

Post by Ashe37 » Tue Nov 03, 2009 3:55 am

Some of the components necessary to make a CS-80 are 'not available', and there is no modern equivalent. Starting up production on a new analog semiconductor is a risky proposition and expensive, they can't just roll out the old schematic because the whole thing would need to be RoHS complaint- and Yamaha wouldn't want to use these components in just one product.

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Re: Yamaha - enemies of synthsis!

Post by nuketifromorbit » Tue Nov 03, 2009 4:20 pm

volumetrik wrote: Nah its just hard to believe that it cannot be done, considering how they manufacture things these days etc. One thing I noticed about this forum people really like their gear but anytime someone mentions of reintroducing something or making something new you get all anal with "Its impossible, too risky, too expensive, it wont sound as good, no one is going to buy it etc" alright, keep it up until the day all your vintage gear dies.
Your right we do get anal about threads like these, because new members just waltz right in and start posting them all the damn time. More knowledgeable members here have already explained why any of the big three are not currently releasing new analog gear. If you want an analog poly so damn much go buy one from a boutique company and quit clamoring for a modern recreation that you'd probably end up bitching about anyway; In the rare case that one was ever released. Lets say yamaha went down a fairly feasible route and released a VA recreation of some of their famous analogs ala creamware, you'd be pissed because "ITSS NOTT ANNEEELOG ENUFF." You want innovation and analog synthesis go build yourself a modular and stop shitting up the forums.

Finally I'm going to take the word of an electrical engineer, who obviously works in a very relevant field, over yours.
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Re: Yamaha - enemies of synthsis!

Post by Shreddie » Tue Nov 03, 2009 10:28 pm

Volumetrik, may I suggest you re-read this post that I made in a similar thread a while back. But this time, please take in what I said... Especially the bit about the development of the Andromeda being responsible for the demise of the original Alesis... It's a perinant point as far as analogue synths go.

As far as products like the Bugatti Veyron go, they are what are known as 'loss leaders'. The manufacturers (in the Veyrons case, it's VW) build them and sell them at a loss as a development platform with the intention of using spin offs from that technology in profitable future products... VW already have another car with the Veyron engine... I can't remember the name of the car but it's very much a prestige model with which they intend to make a profit.

As far as synths go, I believe the Roland V-synth is/was a loss leader. Of course, now with the Fantom G and a couple of other products, some of the loss leading technology in the V-synth is now available in current, profitable products.

Creating 'loss leaders' for the purpose of development for future products is the only time that it's financially viable for a company to sell something at a loss... Becasue eventually, they'll make that money back.

As far as a re-make of the CS80 goes, as I said in the post I link to above, it simply won't happen, the market is not there and there would be no point in crating a loss leader as there are not enough analogue synth lovers out there to make it financially viable for a company like Yamaha... Even if there were cheaper less sophisticated spin offs.

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Re: Yamaha - enemies of synthsis!

Post by CS_TBL » Tue Nov 03, 2009 11:39 pm

Besides, as I pointed out here, there're alternatives. :P And in five years there may be ten more alternatives. Yamaha knows this. They're not going to recreate an 8-voice CS80 at the cost of a complete home recording soft-studio.

Why not settle for that Arturia Origin? Sure, a few freaks with an oscilloscope may point out a few differences, but seriously: does that make the CS80v an impractical synth? Is a CS80v an ugly, unusable synth just because of that? Why not focus on what you *can* do with it, rather than on the differences that are shown by a microscope?
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Re: Yamaha - enemies of synthsis!

Post by b3groover » Wed Nov 04, 2009 1:32 am

Shreddie wrote:Volumetrik, may I suggest you re-read this post that I made in a similar thread a while back. But this time, please take in what I said...
Wow. I had no idea this guy has been repeating this c**p for months. Forgive me for feeding the trolls.


The most ironic thing about all this is that the Andromeda is probably the single greatest analog polysynth ever released. Point for point, it blows the CS80 out of the water in terms of features and the breadth of sound design possible.

So what's the complaint again?

:roll:

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Re: Yamaha - enemies of synthsis!

Post by volumetrik » Wed Nov 04, 2009 3:56 am

Shreddie, I didn't know you had posted on that thread as I haven't been checking it out, thanks.
CS_TBL wrote:Why not settle for that Arturia Origin? Sure, a few freaks with an oscilloscope may point out a few differences, but seriously: does that make the CS80v an impractical synth? Is a CS80v an ugly, unusable synth just because of that? Why not focus on what you *can* do with it, rather than on the differences that are shown by a microscope?
As I said I'm not really a fan of emu soft-synths, I don't have a problem with them, I would use em, and you can make amazing things with soft synths. But its different with a real instrument than with a mouse/screen.

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Re: Yamaha - enemies of synthsis!

Post by Shreddie » Wed Nov 04, 2009 10:14 am

b3groover wrote:
Shreddie wrote:Volumetrik, may I suggest you re-read this post that I made in a similar thread a while back. But this time, please take in what I said...
Wow. I had no idea this guy has been repeating this c**p for months. Forgive me for feeding the trolls.
Give him (or her) a lttle slack this time... I think all that was needed was an in depth explanation... The one that he (or she) didn't read last time!
The most ironic thing about all this is that the Andromeda is probably the single greatest analog polysynth ever released. Point for point, it blows the CS80 out of the water in terms of features and the breadth of sound design possible.
Too true! It is an amazing synth but unfortunately, it's very unlikely that we'll ever see anything like the Andromeda being made at any point in the future.
volumetrik wrote:Shreddie, I didn't know you had posted on that thread as I haven't been checking it out, thanks.
No worries. Just keep it in mind for the future!

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