Yamaha - enemies of synthsis!

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Re: Yamaha - enemies of synthsis!

Post by druzz » Sun Oct 18, 2009 9:12 pm

maybe they arent releasing any exciting synth at the moment , but its not like they were dedicated to synths.

lots of people dont want to buy hardware anymore. they want to do everything with their computer for practical and economic reasons . yamaha is a big corp. they wont be making something to sell just a few.

anyways they been making very good gear in the past , and we can praise them just for that. yes its sad they are not making anything new and refreshing but lets not get ridiculous.

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Re: Yamaha - enemies of synthsis!

Post by Pro5 » Mon Oct 19, 2009 9:03 am

AN1x, SY77... 2 reasons I don't think Yamaha are an enemy to synthesis - these 2 being deeper than most other synths I own and sounding fkin great with it :)

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Re: Yamaha - enemies of synthsis!

Post by madtheory » Mon Oct 19, 2009 9:37 am

tom Cadillac wrote: Belated apologies for the typo - only just spotted it. :oops:
You can edit the post title...

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Re: Yamaha - enemies of synthsis!

Post by madtheory » Mon Oct 19, 2009 9:40 am

cornutt wrote:
b3groover wrote:Yamaha doesn't own FM. Their licensing of the technology ran out years ago.
Well, they never had a patent on FM per se. What they had a patent on (bought from Chowning) was the "shortcut" FM computation algorithm that the DX7 and its derivatives used. The shortcut algorithm was really a form of phase modulation, and that's what Casio got tripped up on -- they thought they had an original idea in simulating FM via PM, not realizing that they had duplicated Chowning's work.
Ya, but Yamaha never took Casio to court AFAIK? As you say, the patents are on the implementation, not the synthesis method.

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Re: Yamaha - enemies of synthsis!

Post by Mr Rich » Mon Oct 19, 2009 12:21 pm

madtheory wrote:
Mr Rich wrote:The battery is my FS1R is flat.

I blame Yamaha...
Those corporate bastards. They just want to charge you for a new battery every two years. The FS1r is a scam.
They should send someone round to change it for free.
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Re: Yamaha - enemies of synthsis!

Post by balma » Mon Oct 19, 2009 6:50 pm

The best ADSR synthesis on workstations is Yamaha. They are so detailed... love to sculpt patches on AMP screens...

I just complain about their Japanese concept of user interface. They always complicate things. Most of yamaha synths issues are related to the way or procedures to operate them and get the best of their functions and features, but for me, Yamaha means innovation. The concept of their synths is beatiful.

EX5:
A synth, that can do Virtual Acoustic, Virtual Analog, Rompler, FDSP 10 awesome massive effects (unique on EX5) and Sampling.

SY99:
FM heaven but programming it means red eyes. I have spent hundreds of hours dealing with its hypercomplicated tons of parameters.

Some Yamaha synths will always need additional components to function properly. That piss me off a LOT. They want you to invest on components that are hard to find. And EX5 was not cheap when I bought it....

BTW I'm thinking on getting the BREATH CONTROLLER for the Virtual Acoustic engine....

MOTIF:
Most of the Motif users, are church players or band keyboard players that are not into synthesis. When I sold my Motif, first thing that the guy asked was:

where is the piano preset?

I know he will never push the "EDIT" button.

But IMO Motif is the best Japanese workstation. Good keyboard for church guys or synth freaks. Is a synth that can be deep if you want to, or you can use it only for its keyboard sounds and guitars. And despite its price, they have good sales with it.

Yamaha rocks...! They have fails, but they always go beyond their duty.


Image


I wonder if there are Yamaha dildos too.....I wouldn't be surprise
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Re: Yamaha - enemies of synthsis!

Post by cornutt » Mon Oct 19, 2009 7:27 pm

madtheory wrote: Ya, but Yamaha never took Casio to court AFAIK? As you say, the patents are on the implementation, not the synthesis method.
I don't think it ever actually went to court, because Casio pulled out of the synth market. I'm not enough of a law expert (especially concerning Japanese law) to guess at who would have won.
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Re: Yamaha - enemies of synthsis!

Post by cornutt » Mon Oct 19, 2009 7:30 pm

balma wrote: I wonder if there are Yamaha dildos too.....I wouldn't be surprise
I wouldn't either. One of the things that people forget is that Yamaha is an enormously diversified company. Roland, on the other hand, isn't: they basically have three lines of business, all electronics-related. Just saying that they're both Japanese companies is like saying that Ford and Gibson are both American companies.
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Re: Yamaha - enemies of synthsis!

Post by balma » Mon Oct 19, 2009 8:54 pm

cornutt wrote:I don't think it ever actually went to court, because Casio pulled out of the synth market. I'm not enough of a law expert (especially concerning Japanese law) to guess at who would have won.
they still on the business. I just replaced the internal battery of my Yamaha EX5 and it was a Casio one :mrgreen:
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Re: Yamaha - enemies of synthsis!

Post by felis » Mon Oct 19, 2009 9:24 pm

Dano wrote:One thing I'll add praising past Yamaha synths is the Yamaha AN virtual analog synths. The AN1X was one of the earliest hardware VAs that I can think of after the Nord Lead I but I'd still say that to my ear the AN synths are among the most organic-sounding I've heard. (...although the limited interface on my AN200 leaves a lot to be desired!)

I've had several forms of Yamaha's AN. I'm a big fan. I keep suggesting on various forums that they should do it as a softsynth (it is code, after all). A lot of people say that the market is already saturated with software VA's, but I, for one, would pick up a Yamaha AN softsynth right away. It has its own unique sound.

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Re: Yamaha - enemies of synthsis!

Post by madtheory » Mon Oct 19, 2009 10:02 pm

cornutt wrote:
madtheory wrote: Ya, but Yamaha never took Casio to court AFAIK? As you say, the patents are on the implementation, not the synthesis method.
I don't think it ever actually went to court, because Casio pulled out of the synth market. I'm not enough of a law expert (especially concerning Japanese law) to guess at who would have won.
It didn't go to court because there was never a case. Both patents still stand (check the US patent office records) Methinks it's another internet myth.

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Re: Yamaha - enemies of synthsis!

Post by Shreddie » Mon Oct 19, 2009 10:34 pm

madtheory wrote:The DX7 is a fine interface. It's just that FM is c**p. :p
It's not c**p... It's just too complex for your fragile human mind!
tom Cadillac wrote:The dx7 is another testament to this. It sold coz it sounded so good.
No, it sold because it was a fraction of the cost of polyphonic analogues of the time... If the DX7 had been out a couple of years earlier for say £2000 then the prophet 5 came out in '82 for £750... What do you think would have sold the most?! The DX7 was the synth which gave synths to the masses.
CS_TBL wrote:As far as I know, the hardware market is shrinking.
"Is shrinking"?! It's shrunk to about 10-15% of what it was I think!
These days the innovation comes in form of software.
And that's why the market has shrunk so much. The vast majority of the market out there are hobbyists, they can't really afford to spend £2000 on a synth so instead of saving for ages or getting second hand gear like they used to, they'll spend £200 on a controller, some software and install it on the family PC.
balma wrote:Now, if there's a synth with a DEEP digital synthesis around there, is the Yamaha EX5
And the Alesis Fusion! But to be honest, the EX series and the Fusion are nowhere near as deep as the Andromeda, or Kawai K5000. Deep in the sense of being workstations but as synths, there are much deeper waters out there!
On the latest visible case, a company that was great on hardware samplers area, has migrated slowly to the sample-based software: From E-MU, to "Creative Emu". Very sad.... :x
And Emulator X3 is supposed to be the end of the line for E-mu sampling from what I hear... Such a shame.
Slickie wrote:Maybe yamaha is more focused on all of the other musical instruments they make because they see more profit there... :lol:
You'd be right. Lets face it, there's no true software equivalent of a guitar or flute.
knolan wrote:I suspect something happened with the EX5 that scared them away from synths. With the EX5 they took a battering from the Internet on its low DSP capabilities and I believe it caused them to run scared from synths;
Something did happen but it wasn't the EX series or it's lack of DSP that did it... In fact it had a respectable amount of DSP for the time... Sure they could have got more useable effects out of the DSP chips it had but they would have been of a lower quality which would have led to people complaining about it having c**p effects. The EX series were at the limits of technology of the time... It's too easy for us to forget that now in days of almost limitless effects on computers.

What caused Yamaha (and almost every other major manufacturer) to run scared from synths was the software revolution. Over a peroid of just a few years, hardware sales dropped by such a massive amount that it became difficult to make a profit from hardware synths. If (like me) you still have a few magazines and catalouges from back in the late 90's, I suggest you have a look at them... Not only are there far more products from the major manufacturers but there are also numerous products from manufacturers who no longer exist... I'd guess there were easily 5 times as many products back then as there are now and the vast majority of them sold well enough to make a reasonable profit. These days, many hardware synths only just scrape a profit and some make a loss.

Also, developments in hardware are nothing like what they used to be, for the most part each model is just an incremental improvement on the last rather than the big improvment we used to get years ago... This is because it's not worth spending so much on development of products.

Put simply, the market is no longer there.
while also striking gold with the Motif as a "bread and butter" gigging workstation.
Which is why the EX series didn't scare Yamaha away from synths. Instead they took the EX (which was too complex for the man in the street) and simplified it, leaving the base model with just the sample based engine... PLG boards were avalible for those who wanted more and mLAN was released for it... Interestingly (if you've ever wondered what that big, unused expansion slot in the back of the EX is for) mLAN was originally intended for fitment to the EX series.
Financially they are better off; but it deeply saddens me that THE company with the clout and ability to drive the innovation listed above has abandoned the cause today. I simply do not know how the President of Yamaha lives with himself, given how much 'honour' seems to be integral to the ethos of such Japanese companies.
The company is still making a good profit, that's where the honour is... Where would the honour be in sticking to hardware synths, making a loss and driving the company (or at least it's music arm) into the ground?
felis wrote:Once you get out of a strict program mode and into a multi, you can't take 2 steps without seeing the 'DSP Resources Full' message - woefully underpowered.
As I said before... Not for the time it wasn't!
I think that sometime in the future, they'll test the waters again, but they'll do it much more carefully next time.
No they won't, the market just isn't there anymore... Not unless they can find away of developing something for next to nothing then sell it for peanuts so they can shift enough units to make a profit.
balma wrote:The best ADSR synthesis on workstations is Yamaha. They are so detailed... love to sculpt patches on AMP screens...
That I will agree with! With the 'elements' as yamaha calls them, each oscillator has it's own filter, amp and pitch envolopes and each element can then be passed on to the effects... or not! Not to mention the fact that you can layer/split elements within a voice... It's like having a 4 (or 8 in the case of the Motif ES) part multi!
MOTIF:
Most of the Motif users, are church players or band keyboard players that are not into synthesis. When I sold my Motif, first thing that the guy asked was:

where is the piano preset?

I know he will never push the "EDIT" button.
And there lies the rub. That is what the bulk of the market is. Hobbyists and keyboardists just after a good bread and butter selection of sounds... I think it would be fair to say that most of us here are synthesists (not keyboardists) but we only make up a fraction of the market... If you were running a big business, which part of the market would you build your gear towards?

If you guys want innovative products, check out the stuff from the late 90's and early 2000's. That was the time when the market was good and so was the technology... There were enough people buying to fund development of amazing new stuff. These days it's just not like that... if you want innovative, check out software or the smaller more 'bespoke' manufacturers.

Just thinking about old catalogues... I still have a few Turnkey catalogues from the late 90's... Each have 4 pages of synths... Many of the synths are in little boxes so there's loads on each page but not just that... It was only showing about half (maybe less) of what was available at the time. You would have to try hard to fill 4 pages with the same kind of formatting these days.

Just think of the synths that came out in the 90's and late 2000's though... The K5000s, FS1R, EX series, Hartmann Neuron, Andromeda, Technics WSA1, Z1, VP9000 and probably a few more... All synths that are quite sought after these days... And in the case of the VP9000, that still lives on in the guise of the V-Synth... That makes a loss I think but Roland use it as a development platform for new technology... Technology which has now started to filter down into other products such as the Fantom G.

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Re: Yamaha - enemies of synthsis!

Post by balma » Mon Oct 19, 2009 10:53 pm

good quoting shreddie. I had the opportunity to get the k5000s, for $400, but I hesitated , and lost it

Is sad that we can talk about "the last decent product from XX label was" and we check it, and they come from 5-10 years ago! :(

Last decent product from Roland, was the V synth. Funny, this was a VA with an extra addition, a sampler. But it resulted to be a sampler, with a VA and a keyboard as extras. Definitly, it's best function is sampling. but with the terrible limitation of being able to layer only two samplers per patch. But indeed, is one of the finest hardware samplers around, for a lower price than h the K2600...
Despite I have a Vsynth, I have been trying to get the VIP9000, variphrase rocks, but the are rare.

Last decent product from E-mu, was the command station, a great concept for a low price. Incredible machine, that can layer 12 waves into a single patch, each one with is own sample start, its own chorus, and each wave can be delayed sync with the BPM, and 52 different filters. But it definitly needs a patch editor to edit them properly and faster, and the ADSR sucks a big time.

at least Korg still throwing products that are not so bad at all....but lots of producers say that Korgs are toys....


Last decent product from Yamaha???
:?:
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Re: Yamaha - enemies of synthsis!

Post by b3groover » Tue Oct 20, 2009 12:28 am

balma wrote: Is sad that we can talk about "the last decent product from XX label was" and we check it, and they come from 5-10 years ago! :(
You can look at it that way. But think about it this way: These instruments that were released 5 to 10 to 15 years ago have not been totally explored yet. They have not been "maxed out" by us, the users. There is still more to do with them, more patches to make, more music to be made.

I'm finding things the SY77 can do that I wouldn't have thought of back when I got it, 18 years ago thanks to deconstructing some very smartly programmed new patches I found on the web. In this day and age of unlimited computational power, sometimes limitations can be very inspiring and creative.

My point is that technology moved so fast starting in the 1990s, there simply wasn't enough time to fully realize the potential of each plateau of the technology itself. My brother and I were talking about this the other day, specifically discussing the Sega Dreamcast. Released in 1999, it was dead by late 2001 and Sega was suddenly out of the console market. They didn't even get to the third generation of games, which is when programmers really start to take advantage of the power of consoles and eek every single ounce of juice they can out of them, making them do things they were never intended to do. It never even got to that point; the untapped potential is a crime.

To continue the analogy, think about the lowly Commodore 64. It had, by today's standards, a remarkably long run in the market (12 years!) and if you look at the games in the beginning versus the games towards the end, the difference is staggering. In fact, people are still finding things it can do that you'd never expect, like multi-track sample playback or the Prophet64 cartridge.

Apply this to Yamaha's synths: Has anyone really maxed out the FS1R yet? Not even close. The EX5? Closer, thanks to the EX5Tech forum. The SY77/99? Nope, not at all.

So you can be sad at the lack of new hardware synths; or you can try to take advantage of the numerous synths released in the past 20 years that have not been fully explored yet. And the best part is you can get them for a mere fraction of their original selling price.
Last decent product from Yamaha???
:?:
Depends on what you're looking for. I have a Motif ES rack and I love it; it fills its role perfectly, which is that of a bread 'n butter module for pianos, EPs, strings, horns, etc. And it sounds great. I have no issue with the Motif series at all.

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Re: Yamaha - enemies of synthsis!

Post by bluedad » Tue Oct 20, 2009 1:46 am

b3groover wrote: I tune pianos for a living and my favorite pianos to tune are Yamahas. They are extremely stable and well-made and hold a tuning very well.
what a coincidence..I tune pianos for a living, and my favorite are Yamaha's, too.

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