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Re: Yamaha - enemies of synthsis!

Posted: Wed Oct 21, 2009 7:50 pm
by redchapterjubilee
I never knew the diversity of sound one could conjur with FM until I bought FM7. Since then I've become a convert. I've also downloaded probably thousands of DX series presets and use those to deconstruct the programming process. Why would Yamaha make another hardware FM when FM7/FM8 pretty much makes it moot? I know the older synths have the benefit of lower fidelity D/A converters and that sets them apart but...for pure FM I'd rather have FM7.

Re: Yamaha - enemies of synthsis!

Posted: Wed Oct 21, 2009 8:04 pm
by MarcinP78
[edit] Double post.

Re: Yamaha - enemies of synthsis!

Posted: Wed Oct 21, 2009 8:07 pm
by MarcinP78
I don't care what anyone says about the DX7, in my opinion it's one of the most amazing sounding Synths ever produced. And if you put in lots of time like i now have it is not all that bad to program.
=D> I second that.

Re: Yamaha - enemies of synthsis!

Posted: Wed Oct 21, 2009 8:23 pm
by Pro5
SY77 in 'FM' (or AFM mode to be precise) sounds sublime. Before that I had lots of interesting sonic adventures with the DX7 II-D (through effects!) that my other synths couldn't begin to do.

Re: Yamaha - enemies of synthsis!

Posted: Wed Oct 21, 2009 10:13 pm
by MarcinP78
Why would Yamaha make another hardware FM when FM7/FM8 pretty much makes it moot? I know the older synths have the benefit of lower fidelity D/A converters and that sets them apart
Is there any reason you think keyboard players should be deprived of their FM keyboards just because someone wrote a computer programme that generates similar sounds?

Re: Yamaha - enemies of synthsis!

Posted: Wed Oct 21, 2009 10:47 pm
by CS_TBL
The future is modularity. Computers are already as modular as they can be (you can handpick the CPU, RAM, videocard, HD, soundcard, monitor, keyboard, mouse, case etc.) Musical equipment is next. Rather than a company coming up with a complete solution, I rather expect companies to specialize in something and together it'd work together. So, you'd handpick your favorite masterkeyboard (complete with 132083 controllers), you pick your favorite plugin-player, and you pick your favorite plugin. Together they're the ideal keyboard.

Best of all worlds I'd say.. In fact, it may just be that if these companies focus on just one element, they may make more money. 'Specializing', as promoted by economist David Ricardo.. ^_^

Re: Yamaha - enemies of synthsis!

Posted: Wed Oct 21, 2009 11:33 pm
by aeon
I had a SY99, and while I loved the sound of that thing, I am so glad that I now have the FS1R instead. (more a reflection of my tastes than the units themselves, both of them so powerful).

Yamaha, enemies of synthesis? Hardly!


cheers,
Ian

Re: Yamaha - enemies of synthsis!

Posted: Thu Oct 22, 2009 12:02 am
by knolan
aeon wrote:I had a SY99, and while I loved the sound of that thing, I am so glad that I now have the FS1R instead. (more a reflection of my tastes than the units themselves, both of them so powerful).

Yamaha, enemies of synthesis? Hardly!


cheers,
Ian
I absolutely love Yamaha synthesizers and own a lot of their classics, I adore the SY99 and am sure the FS1R is amazing though I've never tried it. I also love the sound of the EX5 - 16-part ring-modulators applied subtly onto electric piano sounds and velocity sensitive - it sounds stunning. I also agree with the sentiments posted about the AN1X – it’s among the most under-rated synths of recent times.

But – the point is - while Yamaha have produced all of these stunning technologies - their last actual venture into synthesis was over 10 years ago. They have literally done nothing new in that time (and Tenori is not theirs - they bought it in). That sense of developing new paradigms in synthesis and performance is utterly gone; and at a time when they have the underlying reliable and capable technologies to deliver what were their dream machines of old in ways only dreamt of in the past. What a miserable waste.

I realise only 2000 CS80s were ever sold and so most people can never experience that instrument; but it really is THAT special. Imagine a CS80 for the 21st century with the polyphonic aftertouch on a Motif quality key bed; or multi-timbral ring-modulators from the EX5 but with the realtime control of the CS80.

The point is - 2D soft synths are a lousy pale shadow of the past (yes convenient – but with no performance dimension and sounding utterly vanilla). Rather, the actual possibilities of applying today’s technology to the synthesizer ideas and aspiration of the past would yield truly ground breaking and devastatingly good synthesizers that could leave the likes of the Nord’s standing in their wake.

And that's not even taking into consideration what new and revolutionary hardware performance instruments could be, and perhaps are being, imagined by guru's all over the world right now, all needing the sort of development capability that Yamaha can offer - after all - that's how the GS1, DX7 and DX1 and VL1 emerged - Yamaha taking ground breaking technologies from the likes of the CCRMA and delivering them as exquisite instruments.

All of that sort of innovation, experimentation and releasing of generation after generation of ground breaking instruments finished lock, stock and barrel over a decade ago - there has literally been nothing from them since 1998 that counts (please do not include Motif or the S series). I think it is largely a dark ages in synthesizer development and that we'll actually have to reach rock bottom before, for no reasons clear to us today, a new generation of instruments will emerge that will be the true successors to the CS80, DX7, Minimoog, Jupiter 8 and so on. There are interesting development such as OASYS, V-Synth-GT and probably a dozen examples that others can quote – but almost none match the possibilities that could be realised if Yamaha in particular (with all of their resources) applied themselves to the task; and almost none of today’s synthesizer developments match the pace of development of other technologies across computing, entertainment, telecommunications and so on. Yamaha are not the enemy of synthesis – there’s simply nobody left in that company who knows the first thing about synthesis to spot the difference between the drivel they are releasing today and the masterpieces they released in the past (as their recent KX and CP range reveal).

Kevin.

Re: Yamaha - enemies of synthsis!

Posted: Thu Oct 22, 2009 12:07 am
by balma
Man, I thought the title was sarcasm, hoped to find pure yamaha praising inside. ...

FS1R. I'm ashamed and feel like a traitor to Yamaha. First time I've heard about that synth. Obviously I made an Internet search to find out about it, but I don't understand the type of synthesis it uses.

About the SY99, is one of my oldest synths, got it 11 years ago, obviously I know it very welll.

but FM is like Quantum Mechanics.

I think that Maxwell orr Schoreindenger (is that how you spell it?) said this:

"If you say that you understand Quantum Mechanics at the first time, is because you didn't understand it"

FM is weird. I learned FM on the SY99, one of the most complex synths by Yamaha. But that's why I love it!!!!

is better a synth with so much features that you don't understand, that a synth that you learn all its features in a month. Is a labyrinth, a challenge. Is funny.

I learned FM without a MANUAL. And when I bought it, I didn't speak english. I learned by ear, touching everything, changing parameters random. And 5 years after getting it, I got the manual for the first time.

Around 2000 hours of using the SY99. And still interesting to me.

Synths Yamaha that I have owned:

arranger keyboards:

Around 7-8 models of the PRS series,

An Organ Yamaha Electone (YES I took the "little star" course at yamaha academy)

Synths:
Yamaha W7
Yamaha EX7
Yamaha EX5
Yamaha RM1X
yamaha A4000 sampler
Yamaha SY99

4 Yamaha Flutes.

A Yamaha ATV Banschee 350cc two stroke

A Yamaha Virago 1100 cc (c**p of motorcycle, I spit on it!!!)



So who wants to fight?Image

next purchase?

Yamaha V-Max 1700cc, 230 horsepower, 380 kmph!!!1....

ja ja ja, you wish!!!. Yamaha V-Max is the greatest bike of all times, but $33,000.00 are OUT of my budget.

Re: Yamaha - enemies of synthsis!

Posted: Thu Oct 22, 2009 12:25 am
by CS_TBL
I realise only 2000 CS80s were ever sold and so most people can never experience that instrument; but it really is THAT special. Imagine a CS80 for the 21st century with the polyphonic aftertouch on a Motif quality key bed; or multi-timbral ring-modulators from the EX5 but with the realtime control of the CS80.

The point is - 2D soft synths are a lousy pale shadow of the past (yes convenient – but with no performance dimension and sounding utterly vanilla).
If softsynths disappoint you, stop listening to all the kazillions of lousy synthedit outings that you can get from kazillion freeware websites.

Whatever '2d' means here.. whatever 'no performance dimension' means here.. whatever 'vanilla' means here..

Performance control is not related to the hardware or software paradigm, but to design. There's no reason you couldn't control a sound if the possibilities are there.

Go here: http://www.vintagesynth.com/forum/viewt ... 2&start=27

Btw, I've done the basics of that tune already (the film version), but I'm trying to have a 3d artist recreate LA2019 for my vid.. :D

Re: Yamaha - enemies of synthsis!

Posted: Thu Oct 22, 2009 2:11 am
by braincandy
aeon wrote:I had a SY99, and while I loved the sound of that thing, I am so glad that I now have the FS1R instead. (more a reflection of my tastes than the units themselves, both of them so powerful).

Yamaha, enemies of synthesis? Hardly!


cheers,
Ian
I'm taking a Durst-ian stand of agreeance on this with you. The FS1r is worth the horrific interface. It's just a wonderful sounding synth and the factory set is top-notch (no, I'm not embarrassed to say I like its presets).

And I think the AN1x sounds great and is still an excellent bargain. While the UI isn't as friendly as other VAs, it's easy to work with once you spend a little time with it. I've owned 3 of them and wouldn't rule out owning another one if I were to ever gig again.

Re: Yamaha - enemies of synthsis!

Posted: Thu Oct 22, 2009 2:51 am
by ryryoftokyo
pshhh...All I need to say is this in defense of Yamaha:

1) CS series

2) DX series

3) the AN1x...there is no better virtual analog...PERIOD.

4) Some pretty cool organs

5) The home keyboards are neat and yield nice results when circuit bent

6) Their pianos are very nice

7) The AN1x

Re: Yamaha - enemies of synthsis!

Posted: Thu Oct 22, 2009 2:53 am
by ryryoftokyo
...and if I had to choose a workstation, I'd take a Motif.

Re: Yamaha - enemies of synthsis!

Posted: Thu Oct 22, 2009 3:52 am
by Shreddie
balma wrote:FS1R. I'm ashamed and feel like a traitor to Yamaha. First time I've heard about that synth.
*Cough* Pardon?!
Obviously I made an Internet search to find out about it, but I don't understand the type of synthesis it uses.
It's basically an 8op FM synth but adds some (optional) formant sequencing over the top. The formant sequencing is a bit of a wierd beast but can be used to do anything from rythms, to vocals (the FS1R can 'sing' in a fashion) to adding subtle nuances which add a certain 'life' to the sound.

I say it's an 8 op synth but it's more of an 8+8 op synth as the operators are in pairs. One being a conventional pitched operator with a number of sine wave based wave forms and the other being a noise source. They can all be switched on and off independantly of one another so you don't have to use the noise sources if you don't want to.
but FM is like Quantum Mechanics.

If FM is like quantum mechanics, then the FS1R is the equivalent of quantum mechanics while drunk, without a calculator, with your hands tied behind your back and with one eye poked out... Thanks to it's truly awful user interface which is the epitome of the phrase "wallpapering through a letterbox"... Thankfully there are a couple of PC editors out there which make things a bit easier.

That said, even though it is so difficult to program, it's worth having because it sounds so damned great!

Re: Yamaha - enemies of synthsis!

Posted: Thu Oct 22, 2009 4:27 am
by Automatic Gainsay
It's a sad time when "do your research" means "enter x into a search engine."