Andromeda tips & tricks thread

Discussions about anything analog, digital, MIDI, synth technology, techniques, theories and more.
User avatar
pflosi
Synth Explorer
Synth Explorer
Posts: 3620
Joined: Tue Nov 13, 2007 6:14 pm
Gear: more than 150 characters...
Location: zürich
Contact:

Re: Andromeda tips & tricks thread

Post by pflosi » Thu Dec 03, 2009 1:56 pm

shaft9000 wrote:By all means, use the individual voice outs through a decent mixer.

This makes it sound much better, as the internal summing device of the A6 is pretty bad, and the "voice panning' is a hit-or-miss modulation affair, not true discrete voice separation.

This is my #1 must-do tip, and it's not in the tips and tricks :lol:
ok, so i wanted to make a comparison: a patch in program mode with some sort of pan modulation, then the same patch in mix mode without the pan modulation, but each voice spread across the pan (v1 far left, v2 far right, v3 50 left, v4 50 right etc.), and the same through the individual outputs and a mixer, with the voices spread on the mixer (by the way - does using the individual outs remove the particular voices from the main and / or aux out - like on drum machines???).

but, before i even came to the point where i'd dig out the mixer, a problem occured:
somehow this spreading the voices across the pan in mix mode doesnt work like i expected it to. i thought it would be possible to have the same program patch on every voice channel in mix mode, just with different pan, so that the voices get spread in the order of the pan assignment. i also thought about this before, as this would make a good copy of oberheim 4/8voice patches. this was the first time i really tried to use the mix mode, so maybe (i hope so!) it's my fault:
voice stealing. i only seem to be able to play 3 voices simultaneously. WTF??? every voice is enabled, each has the same patch, just with different panning... all voice outputs are set to main. all voices use midichannel 1. no voice is on solo. all voices are set to be across the whole keyboard (i.e. a layer, not split). what is going on here?
i thought maybe i'd have to set every voice to be mono. but that makes just the whole patch mono. "vsteal" off in the global - kbd page makes it (kinda) mono too - now every second voice will steal the first one. i also tried to search the wohmart forum, and there are some posts about spreading the voices, but no useful replies.

am i missing something about the mix mode behaviour? anyone got an idea? this thing has 16 voices, why should that not be possible???

User avatar
pflosi
Synth Explorer
Synth Explorer
Posts: 3620
Joined: Tue Nov 13, 2007 6:14 pm
Gear: more than 150 characters...
Location: zürich
Contact:

Re: Andromeda tips & tricks thread

Post by pflosi » Thu Dec 03, 2009 4:26 pm

ok, the problem is: it just stacks the different "patches" (which were just different pan settings in my case). the individual channels in mix mode are not the individual voices, just individual "mix channels". it doesnt seem possible to assign mix channels to voices, as far as i see now...? maybe with a DAW and different midi channels...?

if there was "voice number" (not vox key nmb) as a modulation source in the matrix, it would be easy in program mode as well to spread the voices in pan... but there isnt

it starts to look like for the classic obie FVC spreading the voices one needs indeed an external mixer...

User avatar
pflosi
Synth Explorer
Synth Explorer
Posts: 3620
Joined: Tue Nov 13, 2007 6:14 pm
Gear: more than 150 characters...
Location: zürich
Contact:

Re: Andromeda tips & tricks thread

Post by pflosi » Fri Dec 18, 2009 7:18 pm

i won't let this die! where are all the andromeda lovers??? come on guys!

since this is not just a cheapo bump, here's one on FM:

though there is only one obvious knob for FM, there are more possibilities to modulate the oscs and filters at audiorate.
1. the said knob introduces linear and / or exponential FM (one can assign the knob or use the soft pots in the menu) and PWM. this FM path goes from osc2 to osc1.
2. there is a menu point called MZEXT in the osc menu (button 5). this page is both for osc1 and osc2. osc1 can have linear fm, exponential fm or pwm, osc2 can have exponential fm and pwm. cool thing is, you can choose osc1, white, pink or red noise as a source. this way it's possible to have the other fm path going (osc1 to osc2). and yes, osc1 can modulate itself - but it drops into subaudio range then. this is cool cause you can use this subaudio signal from osc1 then to modulate other things. i also love the modulation of red noise here, it's awesome! it is, however, not possible to select multiple sources :(
3. last but not least, the filters can be modulated. in the filter menu, there is an option called CV SRC (soft pot 8). this setting is for both filters. you can choose FILTERFM, EXT IN or both (!!!). FILTFM is osc->filter. in the "wave" page of the oscs, you can choose whether an osc should go to that direction or not (soft pot 8, FILTFM on/off). so it's possible to have both oscs modulating the filter. notice that a waveform (or multiples) have to be selected to do get an effect. then you need to go to the page of filter1, and introduce the modulation with CV IN (soft pot 7), which is obviously also for both oscs. instant gratification! ok, back to the CV SRC setting: EXT IN is great, this lets you modulate the filters by the things that go through the noise/ext in/filter feedback path. so, it's possible modulate the filter by itself again (filter feedback), an external audio or cv source, or again the noise section. you don't need to introduce the modulation by the CV IN setting in filter1, that's only for the other path (as we will see, this enables you to have individual amount of modulation from the oscs and this path when using both). but with this path, there's another thing to remember: the modulation is now introduced by the level pot for the noise/ext audio/filter feedback in the pre filter mix. but, you lose that stuff as a sound source then: because that path shares only 1 vca, which is needed for the modulation, it's not possible to have e.g. the noise as sound source anymore. this can be an advantage (modulation, but the noise should not go through; though, on some patches (e.g. only using self oscillation), one could work around this by setting the F2INPUT to OFF) as well as a disadvantage (obviously if you want the noise as well).

so, great potential for freaky fx stuff etc. :)

User avatar
Synthaholic
Expert Member
Expert Member
Posts: 1206
Joined: Tue Aug 21, 2007 5:43 pm
Gear: Motif XS6, TX802, D-550, A6
Location: NH

Re: Andromeda tips & tricks thread

Post by Synthaholic » Sat Dec 19, 2009 3:28 am

pflosi wrote:i won't let this die! where are all the andromeda lovers??? come on guys!
If I had time to play with my Andromeda, I could come up with some more tips...

A quick one for now... a touch of sub-osc mixed in with the sawtooth makes for a fuller fatter sound, without it sounding like a sub-osc.
Two VCO: thanks to the push rods, one can choose several forms of waves at the same time!
(from a Babelfish translation of a Jupiter-6 site)

Yamaha: Motif XS6, TX802 Roland: D-550 Alesis: A6 Andromeda

User avatar
pflosi
Synth Explorer
Synth Explorer
Posts: 3620
Joined: Tue Nov 13, 2007 6:14 pm
Gear: more than 150 characters...
Location: zürich
Contact:

Re: Andromeda tips & tricks thread

Post by pflosi » Sat Dec 19, 2009 6:54 pm

yeah, that is one of the first tricks mentioned in the tips and tricks. it's really a nice and subtle effect.

User avatar
pflosi
Synth Explorer
Synth Explorer
Posts: 3620
Joined: Tue Nov 13, 2007 6:14 pm
Gear: more than 150 characters...
Location: zürich
Contact:

Re: Andromeda tips & tricks thread

Post by pflosi » Sun Dec 20, 2009 4:24 pm

and here is the reason why that trick with the sub osc is so nice and sounds that good.

here is a pure A6 Saw:

Image

now, the same saw on the same note with the sub osc introduced (of course, right to the perfect level, in this case it's 35.11 and the saw all the way up). notice the additional fundamental in the fft:

Image

you'll notice, it doesnt look like another osc has been added; it rather looks like a clipped saw one octave lower. it also sounds quite like that :) i dont have another synth that behaves this way with sub oscs. of course, the level settings have to be right; it can really be a help to have an fft and oscilloscope going when programming synths. i always monitor everything that goes out of my main outs in these motu oscilloscopes / fft / spectrograph. i really like it.

and while i was at it, here are some more to compare:

A6 Saw again:

Image

Minimoog Saw

Image

MS 20 Saw

Image

A6 Square

Image

Minimoog Square

Image

MS 20 Square

Image

hope you enjoy it ;) maybe i'll post some audio demos too one day...

the minimoog is the latest osc board version...

one strange thing that i noticed when doing these measurings: the well-known clipping of the oscs when cranking the pre-filter levels over 50 is only visible in my oscilloscope when the filters are bypassed, and not when it's just fully open. all the pics above are through filter2, fully open. another REALLY strange thing i noticed is, the filter bypass setting inverts the saw waveform - a positive will be negative and the other way round. i really have no idea why that is.

User avatar
Synthaholic
Expert Member
Expert Member
Posts: 1206
Joined: Tue Aug 21, 2007 5:43 pm
Gear: Motif XS6, TX802, D-550, A6
Location: NH

Re: Andromeda tips & tricks thread

Post by Synthaholic » Sun Dec 20, 2009 8:20 pm

pflosi wrote:...another REALLY strange thing i noticed is, the filter bypass setting inverts the saw waveform - a positive will be negative and the other way round. i really have no idea why that is.
Interesting. It probably inverts all the waveforms, but the saw is non-symmetrical so it's readily apparent when it's inverted. Try with a non-50% pulse wave and I'll bet you'll see that gets inverted as well.

Maybe the post-osc and post-filter mixers use inverting amplifiers, so when you bypass one of them the output gets inverted, but through both it becomes non-inverted again.

Interesting that the Minimoog has such a "perfect" looking sawtooth on the scope. I figured with its distinctive character that the waveform would be more interesting looking. Also interesting that the Mini has a negative sawtooth.

Is the A6 saw you show the positive or negative saw? Looks negative, but with inverting going on who knows.
Two VCO: thanks to the push rods, one can choose several forms of waves at the same time!
(from a Babelfish translation of a Jupiter-6 site)

Yamaha: Motif XS6, TX802 Roland: D-550 Alesis: A6 Andromeda

User avatar
pflosi
Synth Explorer
Synth Explorer
Posts: 3620
Joined: Tue Nov 13, 2007 6:14 pm
Gear: more than 150 characters...
Location: zürich
Contact:

Re: Andromeda tips & tricks thread

Post by pflosi » Sun Dec 20, 2009 11:05 pm

yes, you are right, it inverts all waveforms. i think you might be right with the inverting amps, that's the only explanation that makes somewhat sense. do you also have an idea why the clipping in the pre filter mix is only visible when the filter is bypassed? i don't hear much of a difference, sounds clipped both ways…

the A6 saw i'm showing is labelled positive :) but it is also wrong labelled on the minimoog itself (it also has both) - and that's not "pos" / "neg" but actual waveform drawings. :lol: maybe they wanted to copy that too in the A6 ;)

the minimoog saw does indeed not look too interesting - actually the A6's looks more special. nevertheless sounds special, but i think lots of the minimoog character is the filter... we have to keep in mind that it's the latest osc board version though, and that the A6 is designed after the 921b and not the minimoog.

User avatar
CapnMarvel
Junior Member
Junior Member
Posts: 131
Joined: Tue Feb 26, 2008 9:36 pm

Re: Andromeda tips & tricks thread

Post by CapnMarvel » Mon Dec 21, 2009 2:31 pm

This was mentioned in another thread, but I tried it this weekend with nice results - change the engine optimization to 'Warm Pads/Dark Bass' if you don't need snappy envelopes and listen to the PWM get all gooey and nice. The whole synth sounds better, to my ears.
Gear List: A bunch that go 'WHHONNGG!', several that go 'tweedle tweedle' and 'thumpity', and a few that don't make any noise at all but have lots of delightful little lights on them.

User avatar
Synthaholic
Expert Member
Expert Member
Posts: 1206
Joined: Tue Aug 21, 2007 5:43 pm
Gear: Motif XS6, TX802, D-550, A6
Location: NH

Re: Andromeda tips & tricks thread

Post by Synthaholic » Mon Dec 21, 2009 3:32 pm

pflosi wrote:the A6 saw i'm showing is labelled positive :) but it is also wrong labelled on the minimoog itself (it also has both) - and that's not "pos" / "neg" but actual waveform drawings. :lol: maybe they wanted to copy that too in the A6 ;)
How do you have your 'scope software hooked up to the synths? Through a mixer? Maybe that is inverting the signals. When time permits (yeah right) I'll hook my cheapo scope to my A6 and check out the waveforms and see if they're inverted too.

Is the pulse wave inverted relative to what you would expect too?
Two VCO: thanks to the push rods, one can choose several forms of waves at the same time!
(from a Babelfish translation of a Jupiter-6 site)

Yamaha: Motif XS6, TX802 Roland: D-550 Alesis: A6 Andromeda

elmacaco
Newbie
Newbie
Posts: 68
Joined: Tue Sep 06, 2005 5:39 am

Re: Andromeda tips & tricks thread

Post by elmacaco » Mon Dec 21, 2009 4:53 pm

Some soundcards are AC coupled and also invert on the input, this is usually a caveat on software oscilloscopes that use your internal soundcard. I doubt the minimoog was labeled wrong, last time I sampled one it was consistent with the panel. The way I was told to test it was to just hook up a AA battery to the audio lead and see what gets recorded, voltage up or voltage down.

I have an analog scope and I could see the clipping quite easily, but I don't remember if I only did it with the filter's bypassed.

I guess I'll hook it up sometime and check it out again.

User avatar
pflosi
Synth Explorer
Synth Explorer
Posts: 3620
Joined: Tue Nov 13, 2007 6:14 pm
Gear: more than 150 characters...
Location: zürich
Contact:

Re: Andromeda tips & tricks thread

Post by pflosi » Mon Dec 21, 2009 5:31 pm

it could indeed be that the motu inverts on the inputs. that would make totally sense. i know that it is not dc coupled (otherwise volta wouldnt work). so maybe that's indeed the problem with the inversion... it looks wrong when measuring the interface input, as well as when measuring the main outs, though... so that would mean only the inputs are inverted, and not the outs.

synthaholic, what exactly do you mean by "inverted relative"? whether it flips the phase or not? here are some 2 more graphs:

A6 pulse through vcf2:

Image

A6 pulse, filters bypassed:

Image

looks like it filps the phase and not only inverts the waveform to me... or am i misunderstanding you?
Last edited by pflosi on Mon Dec 21, 2009 5:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
pflosi
Synth Explorer
Synth Explorer
Posts: 3620
Joined: Tue Nov 13, 2007 6:14 pm
Gear: more than 150 characters...
Location: zürich
Contact:

Re: Andromeda tips & tricks thread

Post by pflosi » Mon Dec 21, 2009 5:41 pm

CapnMarvel wrote:This was mentioned in another thread, but I tried it this weekend with nice results - change the engine optimization to 'Warm Pads/Dark Bass' if you don't need snappy envelopes and listen to the PWM get all gooey and nice. The whole synth sounds better, to my ears.
yeah, the engine optimizer is great. i especially like it for getting things more percussive. very very fast stuff

User avatar
pflosi
Synth Explorer
Synth Explorer
Posts: 3620
Joined: Tue Nov 13, 2007 6:14 pm
Gear: more than 150 characters...
Location: zürich
Contact:

Re: Andromeda tips & tricks thread

Post by pflosi » Mon Dec 21, 2009 7:26 pm

my roommates that know much much more about electronics than me just told me that it is normal behavoir for a filter to invert (think of all-pass filter). that would explain the filter bypass thing, as well as the wrong labelling if the labelling is meant to be the straight osc output...

also, the thing with the sub osc... the sub osc fader seems to be a crossfade rather than just an addition to the top wave...

this is interesting stuff

User avatar
minime123
Expert Member
Expert Member
Posts: 1065
Joined: Wed Jul 20, 2005 1:44 pm
Location: USA
Contact:

Re: Andromeda tips & tricks thread

Post by minime123 » Wed Dec 23, 2009 8:11 pm

no time to read this right now, but tip number 1 from me would be to let the thing warm up for 30 min to an hour before expecting it to tune. after that, it tunes well (if youve got a good one like i now seem to have).
mini
VINTAGE SYNTH DEALER
- We Buy Sell Trade Repair Vintage Synths
- We Buy Broken Gear & Parts Too...
- Huge Selection, Dependable Service
- https://tonetweakers.com

Post Reply