Forever aliasing?

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Primal Drive
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Forever aliasing?

Post by Primal Drive » Thu Apr 22, 2010 9:42 pm

I have thoroughly enjoyed the Minimax, Prodyssey and Pro-12 in my Plugiator. But as good as they sound there is still aliasing in the high end (the severity depending on the patch and the FX used). I know there are much more expensive VAs that have very little aliasing, but it's still there regardless.

Will they (the designers/programmers) ever be able to get rid of that in future VAs, or will an entirely new way of creating VA need to be implemented?

And on a side note (no pun intended), does anyone here have a creative way of dealing with very bad aliasing from older VAs (besides not using them I mean)?
And then she said, "What the f...?"

skweeegor
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Re: Forever aliasing?

Post by skweeegor » Thu Apr 22, 2010 10:49 pm

There are soft synths (u-he ACE for example) with no audible aliasing, so I imagine there is or will be a VA that doesn't have any either.

Primal Drive
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Re: Forever aliasing?

Post by Primal Drive » Thu Apr 22, 2010 11:08 pm

skweeegor wrote:There are soft synths (u-he ACE for example) with no audible aliasing, so I imagine there is or will be a VA that doesn't have any either.
Thanks skweeegor. Being a hardware player exclusively I was unaware that there are soft synths that have no audible aliasing.

My question now is, why isn't this being done with hardware VA synths? Is it because this would require a dedicated hard drive, and therefore make production costs unfeasible?
And then she said, "What the f...?"

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Yoozer
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Re: Forever aliasing?

Post by Yoozer » Thu Apr 22, 2010 11:15 pm

Aliasing can be blamed on Nyquist. Nyquist can be solved by increasing the internal sample rate. Softsynths also allow you to apply oversampling, with often ruinous results for your available CPU power (try DCAM set to 8 times and load Amber at 24/96 - you'll weep); I don't know how many VAs actually apply this too, since they can't get away with offering only a few voices anymore nowadays, and oversampling might kick the poor Motorola in the nuts.

Then there's some models that take shortcuts with certain forms of modulation; the older Nord Modulars used an LFO that didn't have the accuracy of the oscillators, which was fine at everything below audio rate. On the other hand, it allows you to abuse the LFO as a very cheap (but not very stable or hi-fi) oscillator, allowing you greater polyphony than stated in the books.

How I deal with it? I embrace it. Part of the character, like the Juno-60's noisy chorus.
"Part of an instrument is what it can do, and part of it is what you do to it" - Suzanne Ciani, 197x.

pizzamon
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Re: Forever aliasing?

Post by pizzamon » Thu Apr 22, 2010 11:31 pm

Damn, I have been looking at a plugiator lately, I really wanted one. I mean it sounds great. Then I found out there are all these unsolved bugs and now aliasing issues. I doubt aliasing will ever be solved in the sonic core stuff, because the algorithms won't be changed, but I wonder if, with the implementation of the solaris, they will work through all the bugs I've been learning about?

Primal Drive
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Re: Forever aliasing?

Post by Primal Drive » Fri Apr 23, 2010 12:02 am

Yoozer wrote:Aliasing can be blamed on Nyquist. Nyquist can be solved by increasing the internal sample rate. Softsynths also allow you to apply oversampling, with often ruinous results for your available CPU power (try DCAM set to 8 times and load Amber at 24/96 - you'll weep); I don't know how many VAs actually apply this too, since they can't get away with offering only a few voices anymore nowadays, and oversampling might kick the poor Motorola in the nuts.
So, if I understand you correctly, this might eventually be solved by using a more powerful CPU?
How I deal with it? I embrace it. Part of the character, like the Juno-60's noisy chorus.
I've used aliasing as transitory effects with great (to me) results. Where it burns my a*s is when I'm playing a nice sounding patch, only for it to be ruined with that characteristic inharmonic sound on a high end pitch bend.
And then she said, "What the f...?"

Primal Drive
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Re: Forever aliasing?

Post by Primal Drive » Fri Apr 23, 2010 12:04 am

pizzamon wrote:Damn, I have been looking at a plugiator lately, I really wanted one. I mean it sounds great. Then I found out there are all these unsolved bugs and now aliasing issues. I doubt aliasing will ever be solved in the sonic core stuff, because the algorithms won't be changed, but I wonder if, with the implementation of the solaris, they will work through all the bugs I've been learning about?
I hope I didn't give the impresion that I was knocking the Plugiator. It really does sound very good and it's definitely a good bang for the buck. I've never had any problems with mine and aside from the aliasing I mentioned I loves the sound of it.
And then she said, "What the f...?"

skweeegor
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Re: Forever aliasing?

Post by skweeegor » Fri Apr 23, 2010 2:14 am

Primal Drive wrote: So, if I understand you correctly, this might eventually be solved by using a more powerful CPU?
This is probably the case. A 16 voice polyphonic patch on u-he ace takes up about 50% of my quad core. What Yoozer is saying is correct as ace uses 2x/4x/8x oversampling to achieve the inaudible aliasing as well.

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