Was the Roland D50 the first VA Modelling Synth?

Discussions about anything analog, digital, MIDI, synth technology, techniques, theories and more.
User avatar
Stab Frenzy
Moderator
Moderator
Posts: 9723
Joined: Tue Jun 06, 2006 5:41 pm
Gear: Eurorack, RYTM, Ultranova, many FX
Location: monster island*
Contact:

Re: Was the Roland D50 the first VA Modelling Synth?

Post by Stab Frenzy » Tue Jun 22, 2010 11:49 am

jupiter8 wrote:So how does a D50 work exactly ? What algorithms does it use ?
It doesn't matter what algorithms it uses, if it uses any algorithms it's different to analogue circuitry.

I think it's time that you stopped derailing this thread by being argumentative if you don't mind.

jupiter8
Junior Member
Junior Member
Posts: 198
Joined: Sat Aug 05, 2006 3:30 pm
Location: Sweden

Re: Was the Roland D50 the first VA Modelling Synth?

Post by jupiter8 » Tue Jun 22, 2010 12:00 pm

Automatic Gainsay wrote:His statement that other synths had throwback architecture is true, and demonstrated amply by at least two huge synths which came out around that time which were also digital: the Korg M1 (you might recognize that name, being as that it was among the top sellers of all time, and was in no way emulative except inasmuch as it included sounds from all sorts of instruments), and the Ensoniq ESQ-1
The Ensoniq was analog (in parts) and the Korg M1 came out after the D50. Even so,if we ignore the the sample part (you had to choose,it was either a PCM waveform or a synth part) and focus on the synth part, it had a choice of sawtooth or square with pw/pwm. The Ensoniq and Korg had 32 and 100 sampled waveforms to choose between and none of the did pulsewitdh modulation. Plus as i already mentioned the M1 didn't have a resonant filter. Both of them were in fact quite different from the D50. The D50 is often lumped together with several synths that came out shortly after under the S+S moniker but it is distinctevly different from those. You only had 2 waveforms to choose form and it was capable of pwm. None of the others were.

jupiter8
Junior Member
Junior Member
Posts: 198
Joined: Sat Aug 05, 2006 3:30 pm
Location: Sweden

Re: Was the Roland D50 the first VA Modelling Synth?

Post by jupiter8 » Tue Jun 22, 2010 12:02 pm

Stab Frenzy wrote:
jupiter8 wrote:So how does a D50 work exactly ? What algorithms does it use ?
It doesn't matter what algorithms it uses, if it uses any algorithms it's different to analogue circuitry.
Well yeah,that is obvious but what bearing does that have on this discussion ? It is easier to tell what's going on under the hood ? It wasn't me who brought it up.

User avatar
Automatic Gainsay
Synth Explorer
Synth Explorer
Posts: 3962
Joined: Wed Feb 14, 2007 12:22 am
Real name: Marc Doty
Gear: Minimoog, 2600, CS-15, CS-50, MiniBrute, MicroBrute, S2, Korg MS-20 Mini, 3 Volcas, Pro 2, Leipzig, Pianet T, Wurli 7300, Wurli 145-A, ASR-10, e6400.
Band: Godfrey's Cordial
Location: Tacoma
Contact:

Re: Was the Roland D50 the first VA Modelling Synth?

Post by Automatic Gainsay » Tue Jun 22, 2010 5:00 pm

Where is the nerd who was supposed to remind us of Roland's vaunted LA SYNTHESIS?
I had totally forgotten about it.

Apparently everyone else also forgot that the D50 was Roland's fancy first example of this NEW FORM OF SYNTHESIS, which they intended to compete with FM. L.A., or "linear arithmetic." Sort of hard to portray it as an analog-emulative device when they were trotting out what they believed was a new, modern, digital form of synthesis.
‎"I am not able rightly to apprehend the kind of confusion of ideas that could provoke such a question." -Charles Babbage
"Unity and Mediocrity are forever in bed together." -Zane W.
http://www.youtube.com/automaticgainsay

Primal Drive
Junior Member
Junior Member
Posts: 153
Joined: Wed Jul 22, 2009 5:26 am
Location: Colorado in the US of A

Re: Was the Roland D50 the first VA Modelling Synth?

Post by Primal Drive » Wed Jun 23, 2010 12:00 pm

H was barely a point above a circus freak. Still, she was wet and sloppy though...

Now THAT's organic synthesis! :lol:
And then she said, "What the f...?"

User avatar
Automatic Gainsay
Synth Explorer
Synth Explorer
Posts: 3962
Joined: Wed Feb 14, 2007 12:22 am
Real name: Marc Doty
Gear: Minimoog, 2600, CS-15, CS-50, MiniBrute, MicroBrute, S2, Korg MS-20 Mini, 3 Volcas, Pro 2, Leipzig, Pianet T, Wurli 7300, Wurli 145-A, ASR-10, e6400.
Band: Godfrey's Cordial
Location: Tacoma
Contact:

Re: Was the Roland D50 the first VA Modelling Synth?

Post by Automatic Gainsay » Wed Jun 23, 2010 4:32 pm

Primal Drive wrote:"This is some of the most valuable information on the internet regarding analog synths. Thank you!" ~ Automatic Gainsay's reply to my post A bit about old VCOs.
:::gapes::::

Then that's what this meant:
Primal Drive wrote: Finally, going OOT, old man Derrik sez hey (yeah, I got all this from him).

Edit: Derrik's cool.
You're Derrik????

As a person with such vast knowledge and experience with electronics, I am deeply surprised you were so unreceptive to my point about that definition.
While I still hold to my frustration with that term, I want to be clear that I have great respect for your knowledge.
I would apologize, but the truly offensive and extensive post I was going to post in response to your response was lost when my USB modem fell out. :)

God, stop arguing with a d**k like me and post posts like those you did on Synthwerx... these people need to read that stuff.
‎"I am not able rightly to apprehend the kind of confusion of ideas that could provoke such a question." -Charles Babbage
"Unity and Mediocrity are forever in bed together." -Zane W.
http://www.youtube.com/automaticgainsay

User avatar
ItsMeOnly
Active Member
Active Member
Posts: 325
Joined: Thu Dec 01, 2005 9:01 pm

Re: Was the Roland D50 the first VA Modelling Synth?

Post by ItsMeOnly » Wed Jun 23, 2010 4:49 pm

jupiter8 wrote:So it is decided by if you have a generic DSP or not ? Since the D50s processor wasn't sold to other campanies (nevermind that it does the exact same thing as a Freescale 56k) it's not a VA ? Never heard that definition before.
Actually, it doesn't (56k). You incline that most of D-50 signal processing comes from programmed algorithm where it actually comes from LSI hardware. That's the MAIN difference per definition. Giving Nord Lead as an example is a very good idea, since most of its sound capabilities, and bugs coming with it came from OS software, and not dedicated hardware.

BTW, what do you mean by D-50 Processor? NEC microPD? Like in many synths preceeding it, that one is responsible for keyboard/panel scanning and memory management, interrupts, etc.
From what I know D-50 sound engine is more similar to SID or DOC than DSP.

User avatar
ItsMeOnly
Active Member
Active Member
Posts: 325
Joined: Thu Dec 01, 2005 9:01 pm

Re: Was the Roland D50 the first VA Modelling Synth?

Post by ItsMeOnly » Wed Jun 23, 2010 5:50 pm

ItsMeOnly wrote:
jupiter8 wrote:So it is decided by if you have a generic DSP or not ? Since the D50s processor wasn't sold to other campanies (nevermind that it does the exact same thing as a Freescale 56k) it's not a VA ? Never heard that definition before.
Actually, it doesn't (56k). You incline that most of D-50 signal processing comes from programmed algorithm where it actually comes from LSI hardware. That's the MAIN difference per definition. Giving Nord Lead as an example is a very good idea, since most of its sound capabilities, and bugs coming with it came from OS software, and not dedicated hardware.

BTW, what do you mean by D-50 Processor? NEC microPD? Like in many synths preceeding it, that one is responsible for keyboard/panel scanning and memory management, interrupts, etc.
From what I know D-50 sound engine is more similar to SID or DOC than DSP.
Merriam Webster Dictionary wrote:Main Entry: vir·tu·al
Pronunciation: \ˈvər-chə-wəl, -chəl; ˈvərch-wəl\
Function: adjective
Etymology: Middle English, efficacious, potential, from Medieval Latin virtualis, from Latin virtus strength, virtue
Date: 15th century

1 : being such in essence or effect though not formally recognized or admitted <a virtual dictator>
2 : of, relating to, or using virtual memory
3 : of, relating to, or being a hypothetical particle whose existence is inferred from indirect evidence <virtual photons> — compare real 3
4 : being on or simulated on a computer or computer network <print or virtual books> <a virtual keyboard>: as a : occurring or existing primarily online <a virtual library> <virtual shopping> b : of, relating to, or existing within a virtual reality <a virtual world> <a virtual tour>
So what meaning we've actually taken as benchmark?
ad 1) any synth that was designed to act in similarity to analog synthesizers fits here: including S+S synths that use control surfaces similar to.
ad 2) Memorymoog comes to mind ;-)
ad 3) Here's your VA sold today
ad 4) selfexplainatory

jupiter8
Junior Member
Junior Member
Posts: 198
Joined: Sat Aug 05, 2006 3:30 pm
Location: Sweden

Re: Was the Roland D50 the first VA Modelling Synth?

Post by jupiter8 » Wed Jun 23, 2010 6:43 pm

ItsMeOnly wrote:
jupiter8 wrote:So it is decided by if you have a generic DSP or not ? Since the D50s processor wasn't sold to other campanies (nevermind that it does the exact same thing as a Freescale 56k) it's not a VA ? Never heard that definition before.
Actually, it doesn't (56k). You incline that most of D-50 signal processing comes from programmed algorithm where it actually comes from LSI hardware. That's the MAIN difference per definition. Giving Nord Lead as an example is a very good idea, since most of its sound capabilities, and bugs coming with it came from OS software, and not dedicated hardware.

BTW, what do you mean by D-50 Processor? NEC microPD? Like in many synths preceeding it, that one is responsible for keyboard/panel scanning and memory management, interrupts, etc.
From what I know D-50 sound engine is more similar to SID or DOC than DSP.
What i meant was that they made their own processor,call it DSP (because that's what it basically is) call it an ASIC or whatever,they aren't mutually exclusive.
And as far as i know LSI is just a description of transistor density. Doesn't say anything about the function.
And it had one or two (not completely sure) chips that took care of the sound generation. So if it's hardwired to one thing or if it reads the zeroes and ones from a RAM,ROM or bubble memory doesn't really matter.All it does is add and move stuff around. And i don't have a clue what that has to do with whether the D50 is a VA or not.

And regarding the NL i'd say ALL of it's sound capability comes from the Software (wasn't aware that it had an operating system and frankly i doubt it) since you can exchange the processor and it'll sound exactly the same. Not so with the code.

boxed
Newbie
Newbie
Posts: 37
Joined: Mon Feb 15, 2010 6:02 am

Re: Was the Roland D50 the first VA Modelling Synth?

Post by boxed » Fri Jan 10, 2014 1:41 pm

As far as we know the filters, oscs and envelopes of the D50 weren't physically modelled on analogue circuitry. So whilst you can ignore the samples and create sounds using purely subtractive synthesis. It isn't strictly speaking a VA synth because of the lack of physical component modelling of analogue circuits. The D50 is therefore a digital subtractive synth but not a true VA (Virtual Analogue).

What made the Korg Prophecy special was that it used physical modelling at a component level to recreate actual circuits.

User avatar
ninja6485
Synth Explorer
Synth Explorer
Posts: 2771
Joined: Sun Apr 19, 2009 10:13 pm
Gear: Virus Ti, Jx-8p, Juno 60, Radias, Maschine, 101,303,606,707,727,808,909, odyssey, mirage, akai s5K/s2K/s1k, drumtraks, E6400ult, M1R, rx5, fizmo,d50
Band: Subliminal Sea
Location: Exton/ westchester
Contact:

Re: Was the Roland D50 the first VA Modelling Synth?

Post by ninja6485 » Fri Jan 10, 2014 4:32 pm

This thread eats brains.
This looks like a psychotropic reaction. No wonder it's so popular...

User avatar
Jabberwalky
Synth Explorer
Synth Explorer
Posts: 2164
Joined: Fri Apr 01, 2005 6:03 pm
Gear: A hybrid of vintage and modern junk
Band: Variar
Location: Pgh, PA
Contact:

Re: Was the Roland D50 the first VA Modelling Synth?

Post by Jabberwalky » Fri Jan 10, 2014 7:08 pm

Why bump 4 years later???!!

User avatar
meatballfulton
Moderator
Moderator
Posts: 6129
Joined: Wed Apr 13, 2005 9:29 pm
Gear: Logic Pro X

Re: Was the Roland D50 the first VA Modelling Synth?

Post by meatballfulton » Fri Jan 10, 2014 9:22 pm

Back from the dead!

Image
I listened to Hatfield and the North at Rainbow. They were very wonderful and they made my heart a prisoner.

Post Reply