Any need for VA gear still??

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Re: Any need for VA gear still??

Post by Cumulus » Fri Oct 29, 2010 1:16 am

Polarelch wrote:Wow, you sampled your Jupiter before you sold it? That's like filming your woman before you get divorced :mrgreen:
Nothing wrong with that. How else can you post the videos on www.ex-wiferevengevideos.com

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Re: Any need for VA gear still??

Post by CS_TBL » Fri Oct 29, 2010 1:21 am

Shreddie wrote:but I also like the instability and 'life' of true analogue.
With the right digital synth (e.g. with the right functionality) this instability can be programmed.
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Re: Any need for VA gear still??

Post by novielo » Fri Oct 29, 2010 1:30 am

CS_TBL wrote:
Shreddie wrote:but I also like the instability and 'life' of true analogue.
With the right digital synth (e.g. with the right functionality) this instability can be programmed.
i kind of never understood that reason.

with a s&h function altering the pitch, lfo, filters, vca. you can do instability in them, i usually alter the pitch with the s&h right before i can hear it. it does add a little something with everything else.
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Re: Any need for VA gear still??

Post by 3rdConstruction » Fri Oct 29, 2010 1:36 am

For me, the term VA implies that what it is an imitation, therefore inferior. I think just because a digital synth uses a subtractive synthesis design doesn't means it's intended to be purely an imitation of analogue sound. The basic building blocks of a subtractive synth are very familiar and user friendly terms of reference. But it's just a starting point, isn't it?
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Re: Any need for VA gear still??

Post by Shreddie » Fri Oct 29, 2010 1:43 am

CS_TBL wrote:
Shreddie wrote:but I also like the instability and 'life' of true analogue.
With the right digital synth (e.g. with the right functionality) this instability can be programmed.
I know you can do that but it never seems quite the same somehow... Besides I was more talking about the slight variances in all parts of an analogue synth (filters VCOs etc) which mean that even if the sound is 'static', it's never actually static if you get my drift ('scuse the pun!)... For example, even with the best analogue gear, one cycle of a waveform will never be exactly the same as another, the same isn't true of VA's.

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Re: Any need for VA gear still??

Post by aeon » Fri Oct 29, 2010 3:42 am

I like the fact that with the various VA models you get so much programming control. In my case I use a Clavia Nord Modular, Korg OASYS PCI, and programmed as such, the Yamaha FS1R.

Part of what I also like is the thinner, more stable (unless programmed otherwise) tone as compared and contrasted with a polyphonic analog. I often find a poly analog is too big for the overall mix - not saying for anyone else, just me and my ear. That little-bit-smaller tone works well when I am using a fat VCO analog mono for bass, and there is some FM or physical modeling besides - it just seems to fit better than an analog poly - for me.

The other thing I like about VA is that it tends to have a very nice synergy with analog post-processing as it concerns BBD modulations, either as an aux, or insert as per ensemble processing. It allows for more of the "instability" to come from the BBD than the basic voices of the synth. I tend to like that.

I never think about whether my VA options sound like analog. They sound like themselves, and I like them. If I want real analog timbres, I use real analog. VAs are what they are - sometimes-rewarding digital synths with programming potential.


cheers,
Ian

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Re: Any need for VA gear still??

Post by Shreddie » Fri Oct 29, 2010 4:46 am

aeon wrote:Part of what I also like is the thinner, more stable (unless programmed otherwise) tone as compared and contrasted with a polyphonic analog. I often find a poly analog is too big for the overall mix - not saying for anyone else, just me and my ear. That little-bit-smaller tone works well when I am using a fat VCO analog mono for bass, and there is some FM or physical modeling besides - it just seems to fit better than an analog poly - for me.
You're not the only one, the contrast (though subtle at times) can be used well. I tend to use the K5000s, FS1R and Fusion for 'brighter' parts and the EX7 and Andromeda for darker/bassier/warmer parts... And if I want a really serious room filling analogue bass, I don't go for the Andromeda as you might expect, I go for the EX7 every time 'cos it's AN synthesis is so capable in that respect... Although my aged PSS-480 (run through effects and/or the Andromeda filters) sometimes gets used for that too.

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Re: Any need for VA gear still??

Post by Stab Frenzy » Fri Oct 29, 2010 4:58 am

3rdConstruction wrote:For me, the term VA implies that what it is an imitation, therefore inferior. I think just because a digital synth uses a subtractive synthesis design doesn't means it's intended to be purely an imitation of analogue sound. The basic building blocks of a subtractive synth are very familiar and user friendly terms of reference. But it's just a starting point, isn't it?
VA is just a name, it was probably invented by the marketing department rather than someone who understood all the ins and outs of synthesis.

What's in a name? That which we call a rose by any other name would smell as sweet. :thumbright:

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Re: Any need for VA gear still??

Post by CS_TBL » Fri Oct 29, 2010 10:00 am

Shreddie wrote:
CS_TBL wrote:
Shreddie wrote:but I also like the instability and 'life' of true analogue.
With the right digital synth (e.g. with the right functionality) this instability can be programmed.
I know you can do that but it never seems quite the same somehow... Besides I was more talking about the slight variances in all parts of an analogue synth (filters VCOs etc) which mean that even if the sound is 'static', it's never actually static if you get my drift ('scuse the pun!)... For example, even with the best analogue gear, one cycle of a waveform will never be exactly the same as another, the same isn't true of VA's.
Gimme a recording of, say, a bare sawtooth (one or a few sustaining notes) from such a synth. No filter, no envelope, no LFO, no nothing. Then I'll analyse it and recreate it with FM8.. :P
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Re: Any need for VA gear still??

Post by nvbrkr » Fri Oct 29, 2010 10:19 am

?

What would that have to with what Shreddie argued about the variances produced by all the parts of an analog synth?

Not that I'd myself consider the "slight variations" to be the only factor that contributes to the observed differences mentioned in the typical analog vs. digital debates.

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Re: Any need for VA gear still??

Post by CS_TBL » Fri Oct 29, 2010 10:23 am

I just want to see how far I could come.. indulge me.. :mrgreen:
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Re: Any need for VA gear still??

Post by tekkentool » Fri Oct 29, 2010 11:30 am

synthlab wrote: vsti analogue emulation remains the stuff of idiots.
You mean i can get excellent sounding synth's that can run ridiculous amounts of instances/voices on the average computer for free and I'm the idiot?

what the h**l kind of attitude is that?

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Re: Any need for VA gear still??

Post by shaft9000 » Fri Oct 29, 2010 11:43 am

not much need.
size is no longer the issue w/ polyanalogs. look at DSI's Tetra and the Alesis' ASICS ICs. The analog voices in those are smaller than manyDSPs.

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if you're going to replace something that's old and unreliable with an emulation, then do it practical: i'd much rather have a digital mellotron the size of a micron than...a micron, which is trying to be a substitute for Matrix/Jupiter/mini/A6. I'll bring the A6, thank you. But I am NOT lugging around a mellotron!


it's totally a convenience/reliability thing in the mind of analog aficionados, as there's nothing inherent in VA's vs. other programmable digital synths that makes them better or worse. If anything, the assumed 'limitations' of analog are mimicked so less potential digitalia is achieved. kind of a 'willful regression'.
to think - if the whole '(not-quite)analog revival of the 90's' never happened we could have had all sorts of weird interesting digital synths a la Fizmo and uWaveXT.
instead we got lots of synths w/ identity crisis; and a few flat-out abortions along the way: mc-303, OB12, nova-this and that, nord "modular"....even Moog is not invulnerable and rides their analog past to an extent( another damn Minimoog...select, tribute, performer, OS, XL and on and on)
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Re: Any need for VA gear still??

Post by ryryoftokyo » Fri Oct 29, 2010 12:34 pm

I'm not even convinced that a DX7 can be effectively replicated by software synths, and that's digital from the 80s....Maybe the VA junk that's been put out in the past few years can be handled by software, but I doubt any robust VAs can be done. Case in point, Nord Lead 2x vs the Disco DSP Nord plugin....not even close....it's almost comically far from the 2x. Korg Legacy Wavestation....another not so hot emulation. Sounds great by software standards, and it does an ok job of capturing the flavor of the Wavestation, but again, a Wavestation it isn't!
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Re: Any need for VA gear still??

Post by gs » Sat Oct 30, 2010 6:37 pm

As long as keyboardists like me are around, there will be a need for VA's.

I'm not exactly touring, but I AM gigging, and when you are playing a spot in a festival or a little late getting to a club for your gig, you need to set up fast and I don't want to be dealing with hooking up laptop, sound card, other cables, booting up software and all that c**p. Gotta unfold the stand, slap up the boards, plug into mixer and amp, and get going. Especially when there is pay involved. Don't want to upset stage manager for next year's gig because I'm finagling over a laptop crash or something, and holding up the rest of the band in the process.

That being said, there is certainly value in having a synth around with real VCFs, for punchy basses or creamy leads. I just learned this the hard way. Just recently I sold off my Korg DSS-1 (nice analog filters) which left my set-up completely digital, and I already miss the warm poly-analog brass and the speaker-shaking basses that came from it. So I just recently snapped up a Kawai K3M rackmount hybrid synth for a decent price, should be arriving in a couple days, cant wait!

I also agree with previous poster about the Ensoniq Mirage, or for that matter, any cheap synth/module that has analog filters to add to any setup. Makes a big difference for certain types of sounds. There is also the Mirage rack, ESQ-1/M, EX-8000, DSM-1, MKS-70, Prophet 2002, Emax-1 rack, or anything else cheap with analog filters. Any of these are a good thing to have in one's rack if you can't pony up for expensive analogs and only need the basic 2-osc ---> VCF to create warm poly-brass, leads, basses and string sounds (not the more complex stuff).
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