If Korg can make a Monotron that sells for $65...

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Re: If Korg can make a Monotron that sells for $65...

Post by smoothcriminal » Mon Mar 07, 2011 8:31 am

The amount of money a tiny studio makes hand-assembling synthesizers has no bearing at all on the amount of money that could be made from factory-assembly of a similar product: it's self-evident that if a product built slowly by hand can turn a profit, more products built faster on an assembly line will turn a bigger profit. Therefore, the argument that "Atomo only makes X amount of money, therefore Korg can't do the same thing because they want more than X money" holds no water - Korg, being a gigantic manufacturer with thousands of employees, will naturally operate on a larger scale and therefore make more money than a company composed of 1 or 2 Peruvians just by virtue of proportionality.

Again, this is not a 1:1 comparison, it's a real-world example of the product and the price point being financially viable.

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Re: If Korg can make a Monotron that sells for $65...

Post by crystalmsc » Mon Mar 07, 2011 9:27 am

Em Pe Ge wrote:i just want a MIDI Monotron...
+1, with dual multimode filters.
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Re: If Korg can make a Monotron that sells for $65...

Post by aredj » Mon Mar 07, 2011 1:43 pm

You want cheap? Im in the slow (slow just because its me) process of the doepfer DYI synth.
The board was $200 CAD! Its a pretty full on synth. - and I will be building it with full patch capabilities...
And Im sure after I've built the case and got all my parts together I'll still be in the under $300 mark.

I am lucky enough to have an electronics friend, holding my hand through this process - so I also get to learn. Which is awesome. 'teach a man to fish...'

This friend also has a monotron, so we'll get to experiment how to incorporate it to my little modular...
So many synth options ...

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Re: If Korg can make a Monotron that sells for $65...

Post by pricklyrobot » Mon Mar 07, 2011 2:16 pm

smoothcriminal wrote:Therefore, the argument that "Atomo only makes X amount of money, therefore Korg can't do the same thing because they want more than X money" holds no water - Korg, being a gigantic manufacturer with thousands of employees, will naturally operate on a larger scale and therefore make more money than a company composed of 1 or 2 Peruvians just by virtue of proportionality.
I'm not qualified to expound on economics, but I will say your basic logic itself is faulty. Why would demand go up just because you increased supply?

Maybe Atomo makes a profit (and you haven't actually demonstrated that they do at all, by the way) because they produce a small quantity of products to fill a small demand. And if they, or anyone else, made hundreds more, most of them would end up sitting on a warehouse shelf.

Again, I'm making no assertion that this would be the case, just that you've done nothing to explain why it wouldn't.

This thread is chock full of specious logic, much of it based basic misunderstandings (willful or accidental, I'm not sure) of causality, let alone the complexities of international economics. ;)
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Re: If Korg can make a Monotron that sells for $65...

Post by soundwave106 » Mon Mar 07, 2011 2:32 pm

smoothcriminal wrote:This is why I don't understand the negative reaction to the OP. If a couple of dudes in Peru can run a successful business selling analog gear with equivalent specs for less $$ than the OP was commenting on, I fail to see why people here are acting like the idea of one of the largest synthesizer manufacturers in the world doing the same thing is infuriatingly implausible. Improbable? Sure, and I think it's actually an interesting discussion to speculate why Korg won't do it. But it's hard to see why cost/parts/labor/design is a valid counter-argument when there are real-world examples of it being possible. I'm guessing the actual reason is just that large manufacturers would rather reserved their analog line for the professional studio/stage market where price isn't an object. Why sell a $500 analog when pros will gratefully spend $2500 on an instrument?
Parts / labor / design actually *is* an issue for a polyphonic analog synthesizer; most of them use some form of custom chip to reduce part count. Alesis designed their own ASICs for the A6. Dave Smith has a seemingly infinite supply of Curtis chips. Studio Electronics uses hot-swappable discrete voice cards, but it's an expensive synth. Tom Oberheim's new poly will also be pricey. Could a big synth company undertake such a thing? Yes -- Alesis proved it, after all. (They also went bankrupt for their efforts, although the Andromeda was not the biggest contributor to that.) But in general, the "big three" tend to be fairly conservative in their development compared to smaller companies.

For monophonic analog synths, parts is less of an issue. There are real-world examples of under $500 analog synthesizers in this category. h**l Moog's able to sell a Slim Phatty for $800 and DSI, $400. If these smaller companies start selling analog monos like hotcakes, I can actually speculate that the big companies will leap in that direction. The "big three" after all did not leap into virtual analog until Clavia came along and showed them that knobs were cool again. The direction Korg is going in (cheap "micro" synths and one flagship, the Kronos) does not make me think they would bother. You never know, though.

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Re: If Korg can make a Monotron that sells for $65...

Post by novielo » Mon Mar 07, 2011 3:49 pm

pricklyrobot wrote:I'm not qualified to expound on economics, but I will say your basic logic itself is faulty. Why would demand go up just because you increased supply?
bam!

in fact if they make 10 000 and their's demand only for 100 at 500$. they will have to decrease their price to sell the 10 000, in this case may not be worth it.

keep in mind that these company are still in business because they don't do whatever comes thru our mind...
they have a bit more overhead, like people that study the market and look what would or wouldn't work. financialy.
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Re: If Korg can make a Monotron that sells for $65...

Post by th0mas » Mon Mar 07, 2011 4:02 pm

novielo wrote:
pricklyrobot wrote:I'm not qualified to expound on economics, but I will say your basic logic itself is faulty. Why would demand go up just because you increased supply?
bam!
Was going to say the same thing! Econ 101!

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Re: If Korg can make a Monotron that sells for $65...

Post by griffin avid » Mon Mar 07, 2011 5:19 pm

My dumb thought for the day is....

If you want the larger companies to start making analogs then you'll need the consumer base to stop buying VA and digital synths. If these companies are making more selling cheaper-to-make VAs, why would they take any kind of risk and change over?

Analogue has to become so IN that it's a cultural no-no to buy different.
Obviously basing that on the merits of sound quality/characteristics isn't enough.
Without sounding rude, the overall sounds are too close/similar [usable] to warrant a mass defection.

Without being even more rude, if musicians are willing to use VSTs instead of the hardware, how can you turn an entire industry back towards even more niche hardware?
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Re: If Korg can make a Monotron that sells for $65...

Post by th0mas » Mon Mar 07, 2011 5:30 pm

exactly. Analog is a niche arguably within a niche. Mass production has a high ramp-up cost so you need to be guaranteed high sales to not have it be a failure. Korg's done amazing in that regard with the microkorg and monotron as it is today. Personally I'm stoked they did it at all and as a DIY-er took the few hours to make my monotron accept CV input..

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Re: If Korg can make a Monotron that sells for $65...

Post by smoothcriminal » Tue Mar 08, 2011 4:11 am

pricklyrobot wrote:I will say your basic logic itself is faulty. Why would demand go up just because you increased supply?

I don't mean to belabor this point, but Atomo has been selling out limited runs for years, and this is evidence of both things you deny I'm providing evidence of - 1. demand not being satisfied by supply ergo increase the supply and more will sell; and 2. Atomo's longevity being evidence that they are in fact turning a profit.

Now, neither of these points are "proof" but there is certainly more evidence in favor of my argument than there is of your open-ended skepticism.

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Re: If Korg can make a Monotron that sells for $65...

Post by loungedumore » Tue Mar 08, 2011 4:59 am

I too would love to see Korg make a more complex monotron or in lala land an ms20mkII and have said so before in the " wet dream " threads on here . Contemplation on "" if " they will do anything of this sort however , does come down to the argued economics of other posts though I wouldn't rule out Korg taking a stab at a narrow piece of the MI market in addition to business as usual with perhaps smaller production runs based on the fact they did the monotron at all as well as other quirky devices they have taken gambles on that paid off in the past the kaoss pad come to mind .

That aside I think the only way to even bother thinking any further about it is to find out if they did indeed even build the monotrons themselves or if they outsourced it completely . I would say odds of them doing anything else in the analog realm would be greatly in our favor if they did spend the capital on the staff , space , and machines necessary to build them in the first place ?
I guess time will tell .
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Re: If Korg can make a Monotron that sells for $65...

Post by pricklyrobot » Tue Mar 08, 2011 5:11 am

Nothing in your response convincingly contradicts anything I said.

I really don't care what else Korg does or doesn't make, so I'm tapping out of this thread. I leave you with this: http://www.onegoodmove.org/fallacy/toc.htm
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Re: If Korg can make a Monotron that sells for $65...

Post by novielo » Tue Mar 08, 2011 6:42 am

smoothcriminal wrote:
pricklyrobot wrote:I will say your basic logic itself is faulty. Why would demand go up just because you increased supply?

I don't mean to belabor this point, but Atomo has been selling out limited runs for years, and this is evidence of both things you deny I'm providing evidence of - 1. demand not being satisfied by supply ergo increase the supply and more will sell; and 2. Atomo's longevity being evidence that they are in fact turning a profit.

Now, neither of these points are "proof" but there is certainly more evidence in favor of my argument than there is of your open-ended skepticism.
seriously, get a class in economic 101. we don't have all the variables in this context. maybe the atomo supply just enought of its demand. if not he should sell his limited runs at higher price. if they are 2 in this business in a country where it cost much less to live, they can afford it. you could measure this by deviding the cost of 1 unit with the average wage in that country and do the same in yours. it would give you an idea.
we don't know if korg design the thing or just took a schematic from a scholar and build a casing and droped a couple of switch and pots. do they use a new power plant or they bought one for a penny? do they have a subvention from a local city for employment?

i would love to see a new ms20. or i could build a fully analogue synth with the diy board doepfer sells for something like 200$. you just have to wire it up and pay for what ever quality in pots, swithch and housing that you want
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Re: If Korg can make a Monotron that sells for $65...

Post by Nannerfan » Tue Mar 08, 2011 7:07 am

So basically the moral of this story is that we should all buy monotrons.,. and then we'll have the right to b***h about them, demanding an upgrade.

Makes sense actually.

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Re: If Korg can make a Monotron that sells for $65...

Post by edfunction » Tue Mar 08, 2011 11:21 am

I'd say that it seems unlikely that they would release a much larger scale analog synth, at least not anything more useful than the small offerings from dsi and doepfer etc. I'd expect a slightly upgraded version of the monotron at some point, maybe.
It may be wishful thinking but I don't think people should rule out anything, we just don't know. For sure a new analog synth would be limited run and limited profit for korg, but there is economic value in branding, endorsement, development and prototyping and hype creation. I doubt it will happen but who knows....

I also believe that speculation and discussion are what keeps forums like these alive so it shouldn't be discouraged so enthusiastically.

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