If Korg can make a Monotron that sells for $65...

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Re: If Korg can make a Monotron that sells for $65...

Post by tallowwaters » Tue Mar 08, 2011 12:53 pm

smoothcriminal wrote:
pricklyrobot wrote:I will say your basic logic itself is faulty. Why would demand go up just because you increased supply?

I don't mean to belabor this point, but Atomo has been selling out limited runs for years, and this is evidence of both things you deny I'm providing evidence of - 1. demand not being satisfied by supply ergo increase the supply and more will sell; and 2. Atomo's longevity being evidence that they are in fact turning a profit.

Now, neither of these points are "proof" but there is certainly more evidence in favor of my argument than there is of your open-ended skepticism.
:lol:

You really just don't understand economics, do you?
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Re: If Korg can make a Monotron that sells for $65...

Post by Automatic Gainsay » Tue Mar 08, 2011 2:49 pm

pricklyrobot wrote:I leave you with this: http://www.onegoodmove.org/fallacy/toc.htm
This URL justifies the reading of this whole thread.
I would like to create a library of icons to represent these types of arguments that can be used here... except that the forum would be choked with icons. :wink:
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Re: If Korg can make a Monotron that sells for $65...

Post by shaft9000 » Tue Mar 08, 2011 9:21 pm

griffin avid wrote: Tons of analog synths are available in multiple flavors over at analogue haven, but we'd rather ask KORG to make the same product that's already available over there.
ding! ding!

there is no need for this thread.

go buy a dark energy or mono lancet and make a stencil to spray KORG onto it if you really need it to say 'Korg' on the case.
that's exactly what the Monotron is - a Gakken synth rebranded as Korg.
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999.m1am1.RY30.svc350.memotron

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Re: If Korg can make a Monotron that sells for $65...

Post by redchapterjubilee » Tue Mar 08, 2011 9:25 pm

Once upon a time Korg was a little company, and their reason for going into business was to improve on a product they found lacking: the drum machine. Not necessarily because they wanted to make money (though I'm sure that if that was the result they wouldn't turn the $$ away) but to make a product they themselves would use. This is pretty much the story of nearly every synthesizer manufacturer. People don't start doing it JUST because they want to get rich. But get rich is exactly what some of those companies did, and then their priorities changed. Now it is no longer all about making cool s**t or improving on other's cool ideas. The moneymaking factor changes the sort of products you develop. You can't justify losses to your corporate board for cool products that not enough people bought. When you were a little company you could shift tens of units and do alright. When you're a multinational monolith you need to move five figures at least to make it worth while. I don't think Korg is convinced yet it could sell Microkorg numbers of a more fleshed-out Monotron. But I bet my house the boys in R&D would love to design one and probably already have something in mind.

The Monotron is a cool little device, and Korg saw a market for it because they already saw Gakken tap into that market, plus they had already plowed the field a bit with the Mini Kaoss & Oscillator Pads. So market identified, and justified. But not entirely soul-less, as the engineers slipped in an awesome filter and lots of points for hacking. And have you played one yet? It's terribly fun! I have a hunch if Monotron sales are good (not sure how many of us on VSE have one...I do) then Korg will call up the white coats from the lab and ask them about expanding on it.
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Re: If Korg can make a Monotron that sells for $65...

Post by smoothcriminal » Wed Mar 09, 2011 3:46 am

novielo wrote:seriously, get a class in economic 101.
tallowwaters wrote:You really just don't understand economics, do you?
pricklyrobot wrote:I leave you with this: http://www.onegoodmove.org/fallacy/toc.htm
How ironic: http://www.onegoodmove.org/fallacy/attack.htm

You guys can keep responding with ad hominems if you want, it doesn't offend me. But so long as you fail to meaningfully respond to my evidence with your own evidence (maybe i.e. a company that went bankrupt selling <$500 analogs to counter my example of a successful company selling <$500 analogs?) you can stop pretending your pre-conceived, iron-clad opinion has anything with economics 101.

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Re: If Korg can make a Monotron that sells for $65...

Post by th0mas » Wed Mar 09, 2011 3:55 am

Image

But it's ok smoothcriminal, you know better. You should go into business.

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Re: If Korg can make a Monotron that sells for $65...

Post by smoothcriminal » Wed Mar 09, 2011 4:19 am

now we're just going in circles

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Re: If Korg can make a Monotron that sells for $65...

Post by b3groover » Wed Mar 09, 2011 4:38 am

redchapterjubilee wrote:Once upon a time Korg was a little company, and their reason for going into business was to improve on a product they found lacking: the drum machine. Not necessarily because they wanted to make money (though I'm sure that if that was the result they wouldn't turn the $$ away) but to make a product they themselves would use. This is pretty much the story of nearly every synthesizer manufacturer. People don't start doing it JUST because they want to get rich. But get rich is exactly what some of those companies did, and then their priorities changed. Now it is no longer all about making cool s**t or improving on other's cool ideas.
I was going to stay away from this thread, since it's just going around in circles, but I gotta respond to this. :)

If you go into business and making money is not your top priority, then you're a shitty businessman and will most likely fail. Yes, Korg started small by making drum machines. Why did they make drum machines? Because they saw an opportunity in the market for a product that didn't exist (aka they thought they could make better drum machines than anyone else) and therefor they saw an opportunity to make money. And they were right.

I don't see how that's changed all that much as they've grown. Korg still manufacturers very innovative and useful products. They still see opportunities in the market and make products they think will fill those holes while making money.

Let's just take a few models from the last 20 years as an example of some of the great products they've released recently:

1990 - Wavestation - improved upon the Prophet VS in many ways and is still a classic
1994 - WaveDrum
1996 - Prophecy - one of the earliest VA's
1996 - Trinity - first touchscreen workstation
1999 - Kaoss Pad
1999 - Electribe
2000 - CX3 (has features other clonewheel organs still don't have)
2000 - MS2000
2001 - KARMA
2005 - OASYS
2007 - Kaossilator
2011 - Kronos

I'd say that's a pretty impressive track record. If they think there is a potential to make money with a product like the OP is suggesting, then they will do it. If they don't think there's money in it, they won't. That's called common business sense.

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Re: If Korg can make a Monotron that sells for $65...

Post by th0mas » Wed Mar 09, 2011 3:11 pm

smoothcriminal wrote:now we're just going in circles
:facepalm:

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Re: If Korg can make a Monotron that sells for $65...

Post by StepLogik » Wed Mar 09, 2011 3:58 pm

the power of wishful thinking to override basic logic and economic principles cannot be understated.

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Re: If Korg can make a Monotron that sells for $65...

Post by novielo » Wed Mar 09, 2011 4:26 pm

smoothcriminal wrote:now we're just going in circles
I won't argue anymore with you anymore... :roll:
but please...
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Re: If Korg can make a Monotron that sells for $65...

Post by soundwave106 » Wed Mar 09, 2011 5:35 pm

griffin avid wrote:Without being even more rude, if musicians are willing to use VSTs instead of the hardware, how can you turn an entire industry back towards even more niche hardware?
Because there are musicians using hardware. I think people are right that Korg would skeptically look at making a new analog, but at the same time, some of the naysayers seem to be overstating their case. Synthesizers *overall* are niche hardware, they don't sell in the quantities guitars do. And for all of the "VSTs / let's do everything on a laptop", I'm seeing a decent share of musicians with a Little Phatty or Voyager in the lineup. (Or, less commonly, DSI stuff or an Andromeda or Eurorack.)

It would be interesting if any of the big three decided to license their analog designs to a smaller company that could be set up to handle smaller run, boutique orders. A "limited edition" Moog Voyager had a run of 600, which means to me that their regular products do get some decently high numbers. So to me it's feasible that something like a revived MS-20 would sell in decent quantities -- maybe not high enough quantities for the "big 3", but high enough to sustain a smaller business. Of course, you'd have to find a company competent and dedicated enough to do this, and that would be a real challenge.

What may be telling, in another way, is that so many of the older major American analog synth designers (Moog, Dave Smith, Roger Linn, Tom Oberheim) are back in business. Japanese culture may not be as receptive to the small business idea, perhaps?

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Re: If Korg can make a Monotron that sells for $65...

Post by griffin avid » Wed Mar 09, 2011 7:15 pm

^ I agree with most of your points, except we are talking about something springing from the Monotron.
I mean, an MS-/10/20 could be argued that a revisit was done in the Korg Legacy. Now you're saying do it for real.

I don't know if it's fair to compare KORG with any analogue manufacturer because DSI, Moog et al- all they do is synthesizers. Mostly analog = that's their realm.

That's their bread and butter.

This smacks just as strange as begging Moog to make a ROMpler. "C'mon sample all those vintage Moog synths and put them in a full sized keyboard They could do it and it would sell. I mean they made an iPhone app after all...."

I honestly think KORG will explore this direction further, but I also see that it's a very tricky, tricky landing.
How do you do analogue enough to get us interested, but land below the crowded competition?

Cheaper AND better than a Doepfer....Mopho....Ion...used (analogue like) MS 2000 and all the other VAs floating about. Realistically, they can't break $200 USD. So how much bang for the buck can you shove into that little box

AND

AND

get a real musician who likes hardware to not consider it a toy?
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Re: If Korg can make a Monotron that sells for $65...

Post by RD9 » Wed Mar 09, 2011 7:27 pm

@soundwave16:
Exactly. Everyone knows that analog still matters, simply by proof that most famous musicians continue to use analog on stage and in production, continue to talk about analog in interviews, the very existence and popularity of this website is proof, and the continued discussions on Gearslutz and other electronic music forums, etc. Analog may seem like a niche, but it's very much still in the forefront of electronic music. It only makes sense for companies like Korg and Roland to still consider it from time to time.

@griffin avid
This is definitely not like asking Moog to make a rompler. Moog has always been in the business of analog. Korg on the other hand has the legacy of amazing synths like the MS-20 which people still continue to talk about and fetch exorbitantly high prices on eBay. To say that Korg should be completely out of the analog game doesn't really sound convincing given how enormous their analog legacy is. That's a personal opinion though.

Btw, "toys" are used by serious musicians all the time... like the MicroKorg. Lots of people consider that a toy, but I continue to see them in music videos of famous bands. Also, musicians like Chris Carter use synths like the Chimera.

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Re: If Korg can make a Monotron that sells for $65...

Post by griffin avid » Wed Mar 09, 2011 7:55 pm

Yes, but the microKORG is not an analogue synth and synths are at the front of electronic music, not analogue synths. So the demand is high for (digital, VA, Wave, etc) synths.
And so MANY, MANY synths exist from many different companies.
What has so many in a bunch is that for you, KORG must be the company that makes that next analogue synth.

Name your specs and I bet someone can name-that-synth already available.
You seem to imagine it being sold for "cheap[er]" and having the KORG name behind it.
Basically, you are rehashing the same tired thread that's been done to death.

Why doesn't company XYZ go back to making old product FGH?

When the usual responses are all the same...
Lack of demand
Lack of parts
Lack of capable staff
Abundance of Competition and similar products
Amount of risk involved.

Business 101
You want to do the R&D ONCE and have the technology last a very long time and span many, many products.
All the boutique manufacturers know this and use the model well. This will lower cost over time.

Let's use DSI for an example.
R&D creates the Prophet (voice, if you will) Synthesizer.
That voice is now in...how many products- of all scales shapes and sizes.

Prophet -->Prophet Desktop -->Mopho -->Mopho K -->Tempest

That's called milking the cow to the fullest and we Love them for it.

KORG would have to have an entire line ready- like numerous synths in all varieties.
So it's not as simple as whipping up a new MS-20 built on the success of the cheesy Monotron.
This is huge money, many years and a real commitment.

Unfortunately for you, you seem to have missed KORG's mandate or Main Theme.
It's fun products that allow non musicians to make music.
That translates to fun and immediate and usually simple and at it's worst- missing a few features that pisses off the power users.

KORG will build your analogue synth, but it won't have those extra bells and whistles that every SERIOUS SYNTH-GOD MUST HAVE. And so, when they make it- this forum (and probably you) will be saying that you'd get it, if it only did QRSTUV. So instead you bought one of the other 8-million synths on the market.

That you realized was a better deal after all.
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