A MYTH?

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Re: A MYTH?

Post by Nannerfan » Wed Jun 15, 2011 4:07 am

Very very true... as long as you can multi-track.

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Re: A MYTH?

Post by ninja6485 » Wed Jun 15, 2011 6:05 am

philip wrote:1)Is that actually true that Juno6 sounds fatter than Juno 60?
well, i used to have 2 juno 60's - one older one with a silver bar above the dcb and one newer one (newer serial number) with a black bar above the dcb. the older one with the silver bar sounded warmer side by side, and despite being in rattier shape i kept it and sold the nicer looking one simply based on that percieved sound comparison. i had no idea that two juno's could sound different from eachother at the time, and had no reason to expect the older one to sound differently, and actually diddn't know it was older until i made the observation that it was warmer, which prompted me to suspect that it may be different somehowand investigate. i've heard somewhere that some juno's had the jupiter 8 filter and some had some other near identical filter, but i can't substantiate that claim.
if i had to guess, i would say that a reasonable hypothesis based on my experience is that someone could have had a newer black barred juno 60, and a juno 6 (with the identical specs to my silver bared juno 60) and made the same observations i made, but attributed the sound difference to the 6/60 destinction. someone else with a silver barred 60 and a 6 would report they sound identical.
it could also be that no two synths of that type sound the same, or that there could be some small problem with the synths that i was not aware of, or i was mistaken every time i experienced the phenomenon, which was often.
my personal opinion on the matter which should not be taken as fact is that the juno 6 sounds identical to the early silver barred juno 60's, but not later black barred juno 60's, which may have some different components. again, just my own weak inductive argument, not neccisarily the truth.
This looks like a psychotropic reaction. No wonder it's so popular...

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Re: A MYTH?

Post by nathanscribe » Wed Jun 15, 2011 10:53 am

ninja6485 wrote: i've heard somewhere that some juno's had the jupiter 8 filter and some had some other near identical filter, but i can't substantiate that claim.
I'm guessing "the internet" because it's crud. The Juno 6 and 60 always had the IR3109 quad OTA IC, same as the Jupe 8 and a whole raft of other Rolands. No magic there.
my personal opinion on the matter which should not be taken as fact is that the juno 6 sounds identical to the early silver barred juno 60's, but not later black barred juno 60's, which may have some different components. again, just my own weak inductive argument, not neccisarily the truth.
First I've heard of the bar colour. I don't trust it myself. Having had a Juno 6 for twenty years and a "black bar" Juno 60 for sixteen, I've never noticed any difference in their basic tones.

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Re: A MYTH?

Post by tekkentool » Wed Jun 15, 2011 1:01 pm

Those differences could only possibly be so minute you wouldn't be able to tell unless each track is solo'd and you're listening intently. ITM they'd be invisible.

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Re: A MYTH?

Post by ninja6485 » Wed Jun 15, 2011 4:44 pm

nathanscribe wrote:
ninja6485 wrote: i've heard somewhere that some juno's had the jupiter 8 filter and some had some other near identical filter, but i can't substantiate that claim.
I'm guessing "the internet" because it's crud. The Juno 6 and 60 always had the IR3109 quad OTA IC, same as the Jupe 8 and a whole raft of other Rolands. No magic there.
my personal opinion on the matter which should not be taken as fact is that the juno 6 sounds identical to the early silver barred juno 60's, but not later black barred juno 60's, which may have some different components. again, just my own weak inductive argument, not neccisarily the truth.
First I've heard of the bar colour. I don't trust it myself. Having had a Juno 6 for twenty years and a "black bar" Juno 60 for sixteen, I've never noticed any difference in their basic tones.
i should also point out that i'm not sure that all black barred juno's are later models and all silver barred junos are early models. it could have just worked out that way with the two i had. i've never heard anyone talk about it on the internet, it's purely my own observation
tekkentool wrote:Those differences could only possibly be so minute you wouldn't be able to tell unless each track is solo'd and you're listening intently. ITM they'd be invisible.
i alwayse just had them both on at the same time. i used to use my 606 trigger outs to get some funky dueling juno jams 8-). idn about in a mix, but playing them both frequently at the same time, it happened consistently enough to really catch my attention, and it definitly wasn't an idea i had going in that i then materialized with selective hearing; rather, i was expecting them to be identical. could just be the way people say no two 303's sound identical. it's probably just the nature of the beast in general.
what i'm not sure of, is that the difference is attributed to some specific model difference. what i am sure of is that i've directly observed something that could be the same phenomenon as the origin of the myth.
This looks like a psychotropic reaction. No wonder it's so popular...

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Re: A MYTH?

Post by Sir Ruff » Wed Jun 15, 2011 4:55 pm

ninja6485 wrote: what i'm not sure of, is that the difference is attributed to some specific model difference. what i am sure of is that i've directly observed something that could be the same phenomenon as the origin of the myth.
At the end of the day, there are still analog components plus calibration variables that could easily color the sound just so... I know for a fact the filter can track the keyboard perfectly, but on several I've played, it starts distorting at high rez... aging caps?, etc.
Do you even post on vse bro?

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Re: A MYTH?

Post by nathanscribe » Wed Jun 15, 2011 5:05 pm

That's what I'd expect. Tolerance/tuning/trimming etc. Anything with nearly 30 years of daily use behind it containing components of 10% tolerance is going to develop some kind of 'personality'. It's something and nothing.

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Re: A MYTH?

Post by philip » Wed Jun 15, 2011 5:19 pm

ninja6485 wrote:
philip wrote:1)Is that actually true that Juno6 sounds fatter than Juno 60?
well, i used to have 2 juno 60's - one older one with a silver bar above the dcb and one newer one (newer serial number) with a black bar above the dcb. the older one with the silver bar sounded warmer side by side, and despite being in rattier shape i kept it and sold the nicer looking one simply based on that percieved sound comparison. i had no idea that two juno's could sound different from eachother at the time, and had no reason to expect the older one to sound differently, and actually diddn't know it was older until i made the observation that it was warmer, which prompted me to suspect that it may be different somehowand investigate. i've heard somewhere that some juno's had the jupiter 8 filter and some had some other near identical filter, but i can't substantiate that claim.
if i had to guess, i would say that a reasonable hypothesis based on my experience is that someone could have had a newer black barred juno 60, and a juno 6 (with the identical specs to my silver bared juno 60) and made the same observations i made, but attributed the sound difference to the 6/60 destinction. someone else with a silver barred 60 and a 6 would report they sound identical.
it could also be that no two synths of that type sound the same, or that there could be some small problem with the synths that i was not aware of, or i was mistaken every time i experienced the phenomenon, which was often.
my personal opinion on the matter which should not be taken as fact is that the juno 6 sounds identical to the early silver barred juno 60's, but not later black barred juno 60's, which may have some different components. again, just my own weak inductive argument, not neccisarily the truth.



Well I think the reason could be in voices calibration, one juno was slightly detune maybe,that could possibly made it sound warmer. And "silver barred juno 60's,"-could u post some photos,just curious how does it look like.
Last edited by philip on Wed Jun 15, 2011 8:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: A MYTH?

Post by sam » Wed Jun 15, 2011 6:26 pm

It's like people comparing the MS-20 filters...They both sound practically identical.

I have both versions.

Although the Ms-10 sounds tighter...Maybe because it has no hpf before it.


Anyway the juno's sound great...Twangy bass and the ju-8 filter.
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Re: A MYTH?

Post by nathanscribe » Wed Jun 15, 2011 6:44 pm

It's not the "Jupiter 8 filter", it's the Juno 6 filter, Juno 60 filter, SH-101 filter, MC-202 filter, PH-2 phaser block, RPH-10 phaser block - and, oh, the Jupiter 8 filter. And probably more - including later model Jupiter 4 I think.

It's nothing special. It's in a good deal of what Roland made from that period. Or if it is special, so are all those other things. They're the same chip.

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Re: A MYTH?

Post by sam » Wed Jun 15, 2011 7:29 pm

nathanscribe wrote:It's not the "Jupiter 8 filter", it's the Juno 6 filter, Juno 60 filter, SH-101 filter, MC-202 filter, PH-2 phaser block, RPH-10 phaser block - and, oh, the Jupiter 8 filter. And probably more - including later model Jupiter 4 I think.

It's nothing special. It's in a good deal of what Roland made from that period. Or if it is special, so are all those other things. They're the same chip.
So my jupiter 8 has the juno filter....or the phaser block.

I like to see it that way... :D
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Re: A MYTH?

Post by nathanscribe » Wed Jun 15, 2011 7:58 pm

Yep, maybe if we keep saying "the Jupe 8 has the same crappy chip as the PH-2 phaser" the price will go down and I can buy one...

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Re: A MYTH?

Post by philip » Wed Jun 15, 2011 8:05 pm

nathanscribe wrote:It's not the "Jupiter 8 filter", it's the Juno 6 filter, Juno 60 filter, SH-101 filter, MC-202 filter, PH-2 phaser block, RPH-10 phaser block - and, oh, the Jupiter 8 filter. And probably more - including later model Jupiter 4 I think.

It's nothing special. It's in a good deal of what Roland made from that period. Or if it is special, so are all those other things. They're the same chip.
Did u miss juno 106?

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Re: A MYTH?

Post by sam » Wed Jun 15, 2011 8:24 pm

nathanscribe wrote:Yep, maybe if we keep saying "the Jupe 8 has the same crappy chip as the PH-2 phaser" the price will go down and I can buy one...
You don't see many adverts describing jupiter 8 having a juno filter....but juno 60 prices have gained from the jupe filter...
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Re: A MYTH?

Post by nathanscribe » Wed Jun 15, 2011 9:31 pm

philip wrote:Did u miss juno 106?
No. The Juno 106 uses the infamous 80017 "voice chip" - which does I believe contain more or less the same basic stuff as the VCF and VCA parts of the other synths, but I'm not sure how similar or different those parts are, and the fact they're condensed and encapsulated may mean they have different characteristics. Certainly there's a sonic difference between the earlier Roland filters using 4 separate OTAs (BA662) and those using the IR3109 which is four OTAs in one package - how similar the specs of those chips are I don't know. Anyway, the contents of those 106 voice chips are inaccessible without hardcore action, and I was referring only to the synth I could recall that use the IR3109 as is.

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