Is It Just Me?

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Diametro
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Re: Is It Just Me?

Post by Diametro » Fri Sep 02, 2011 2:41 am

Synthacon wrote:I really do not think a list of Jupiter 8 features are needed Diametro, after owning 2 I am more than aware of them. I was just stating that I do think that it is worth the huge amount of money they are fetching today.

An OBX is a wonderful discrete poly with an amazing tone and I do not seem them fetching the prices of the Jupiter 8.

When you look at a few synths that have taken off price wise I am really really amazed.
Did the list offend you lol ... ???

I forgot one ...

11) Welcome banner at VSE !!!

I listed those characteristics of JP8 because those other synths you mentioned do not possess them all ... In many ways, you could argue JP8 is the perfect VCO analog poly because of A L L of that ... And that is why they are more expensive relative to the other polys of the golden age ...

You could also argue those other synths deserve an asenscion to JP8 price level ... Time will tell ...
JP8,JP6,FanX7,VSynthXT;NI Maschine; KP3x2;RE-201;MOTU828mk2;HS80ms

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Re: Is It Just Me?

Post by urgetoplay » Fri Sep 02, 2011 3:07 am

I wonder about the pricing myself. I bought my first Jupiter in 1983 for $3400; thats roughly what they're going for in todays dollar. The price to obtain most vintage synths is still significantly less than when they were new and if you're patient enough everything comes around.
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Re: Is It Just Me?

Post by Solderman » Fri Sep 02, 2011 3:46 am

AnalogKid wrote:If I had tens of thousands to spend on music gear, I still wouldn't pay more than a few hundred bucks for any of these "classic" synths. Is it just me? Am I speaking vintage synth blasphemy? Are there others out there who think like I do when it comes to prices for these old "classic" synths?
I'm totally with you on this from a logical point of view. But Pandora's big bushy box has been opened, and all the capitalist toxic waste flew out and covered everything years ago, and that's that. They will never be cheap again, and as more of them go beyond repair, the prices will all end up being CS-80 and EMS ridiculous.

We've had plenty of conversations here about all the things mentioned in this thread. Analog vs. digital emulation. Why modern analogs don't sound like vintage. Why they're so goddamned expensive to build in the first place. Why the forumites love them and cry themselves to sleep when they have sold something and regret it later. Like alot.

My only real fear is that of these vintage machines that continue working for the next 50 years, they will all soon end up in the hands of people who never put them in music anymore. It's one thing to play them and experience the joys of a vintage synthesizer. But everyone, certainly everyone on this forum, were inspired first by music made with them.

I had a JP-8 for about 3 years, and it definitely had its share of problems. I sold it partly because of that, but also because I actually started to neglect using it and something in me said that was terribly wrong. I do miss it from time to time, but I still have all my recordings, and they're for me and no one else, and that's good enough. A great sounding synth such as that needs to be heard, and I'm not the one to do it.

What are vintage synths for? There's alot of dialogue about what a synth can do, but what can it do for you? You'll get alot of different answers from different musicians, obviously, with a rapidly growing number of them who have never even seen one in person. I think everyone should ask themselves this question, and weigh it with other opinions before delving too deep into their popularity and prices on the used market. If you can get one, great. If not, don't sweat it. Life is too short to let gearlust cause you misery.
I am no longer in pursuit of vintage synths. The generally absurd inflation from demand versus practical use and maintenance costs is no longer viable. The internet has suffocated and vanquished yet another wonderful hobby. Too bad.
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Re: Is It Just Me?

Post by Stab Frenzy » Fri Sep 02, 2011 4:23 am

Solderman wrote:[My only real fear is that of these vintage machines that continue working for the next 50 years, they will all soon end up in the hands of people who never put them in music anymore. It's one thing to play them and experience the joys of a vintage synthesizer. But everyone, certainly everyone on this forum, were inspired first by music made with them.
I thoroughly agree with you, and have been called elitist because of it many times. Somehow it's elitist to disagree with the idea that people who have lots of money can get whatever they want, whether they'll put it to good use or not.

Regardless, capitalism will continue to reign and we'll see less and less of these synths in the studios of people who can use them to create the songs that made them so sought-after in the first place. They'll end up in glass cases in the living rooms of rich people who loved Duran Duran when they were teenagers, like so many vintage guitars. Great.

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Re: Is It Just Me?

Post by Hossinfeffa » Fri Sep 02, 2011 4:37 am

Stab Frenzy wrote:
Solderman wrote:[My only real fear is that of these vintage machines that continue working for the next 50 years, they will all soon end up in the hands of people who never put them in music anymore. It's one thing to play them and experience the joys of a vintage synthesizer. But everyone, certainly everyone on this forum, were inspired first by music made with them.
I thoroughly agree with you, and have been called elitist because of it many times. Somehow it's elitist to disagree with the idea that people who have lots of money can get whatever they want, whether they'll put it to good use or not.

Regardless, capitalism will continue to reign and we'll see less and less of these synths in the studios of people who can use them to create the songs that made them so sought-after in the first place. They'll end up in glass cases in the living rooms of rich people who loved Duran Duran when they were teenagers, like so many vintage guitars. Great.
I pretty much agree with this too, but some other factors should be considered. With usage comes age and wear. The people that do make use of these instruments will cause wear, no matter how careful they are. After a while they will start to break down more and more. If they are not discrete, parts will become more and more scarce.

After a while only those who have a lot of money will be able to maintain them, and they don't want to always maintain them. So they get put into that glass case. I am thinking of it like vintage cars. Everyone loves to drive one, but we try not to do it that much because it puts more wear onto the car. I admit I don't want to see old instruments being taken out of studios and into living rooms, but that is what time does. You have to be fairly wealthy to maintain things as they get older. And it only gets more pricey as time goes on.

Now some will still play them sparingly 50 years down the line, but of course it will be nothing like it is now.
Well fffff.

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Re: Is It Just Me?

Post by AnalogKid » Fri Sep 02, 2011 5:54 am

I checked this site, and was surprised to see so many responses. I appreciate the thoughts of those of you who have posted comments on this thread so far.

One point that I should have made more clear in my first post, but based on some of the replies seemingly failed to do, is that I was not primarily comparing "classic" vintage synths to modern synth hardware and soft-synths, as if I was comparing or arguing the merits of old analog synths vs. modern synths. The main point that I was trying to make is that I personally don't think that the differences between the sounds of "classic" synths and modern synths is that great that it's worth $5,000 or $8,000 or in some cases $10,000 and up to have an old analog synth, especially with reliability and repair concerns.

I do have to say that, based on some of the replies here, I think that some of you are way underestimating the phenomenal power and sound of the modern synths and conversely (and this is going to strike a raw nerve with many of you, sorry, but it's my opinion) way overestimating the sound of the old "classic" analogs. As far as functionality is concerned (particularly with the amount of patch storage), overall, the modern synths are light years ahead of the old analogs. This is so evident that it's beyond dispute (but I'm sure that someone will try to dispute it anyway). Also, the old analogs definitely need a lot of outboard gear to make them sound good, which isn't always the case with modern synths.

What musical acts back in the days when many of these analog synths were produced used a lot of these "classic" synths? Geoff Downes of Asia comes to mind. I think that he takes the cake on this. When he toured with Asia in the early 80s, his keyboard rig was elevated up behind Carl Palmer and took up the entire back of the stage. Downes played with his back to the audience so that the audience could see the keys. His early 80s rig included dozens of keyboards, with many of the classic synths discussed on this thread. How many of these old analogs does Geoff Downes use nowadays when he tours with Asia? Uh, the answer is zero? Why?

Do you think that when Genesis toured in 2007 that many Genesis fans said, "You know, I'm not going to the show because Tony Banks isn't using a Prophet 10 and ARP Quadra, and it just isn't going to sound the same?” Why did Tony Banks use all modern synths on that tour?

One of my all time favorite synth bands, the band that got me interested in synths more than any other in the early 80s, is Ultravox. In the early 80s, Ultravox was not far from Geoff Downes in the number of synths that they had on stage, with racks and racks of synth gear. At times all three of the band members up front play synths. After not performing together since Live Aid in 1985, Ultravox got together in 2010 for their first tour in decades. When I first heard about the tour, I was curious as to what synths they would use.

Well, Ultravox, in my book THE SYNTH BAND of my youth, comes on stage with each of the three guys out front sporting an Apple laptop and controllers. That’s it. Not one piece of old analog gear. Not only did Ultravox sound fantastic with these soft-synths, I hasten to say, they sounded even better than they did in their 80s heyday. Here are some songs from that 2010 tour:





In my book, the difference in sound is not worth $3000 to $10,000 and up, not even close. Obviously, many would disagree. You are certainly free to spend $5,000 - $10,000 on an old analog machine instead of a new car. It just isn’t going to be me.
Last edited by AnalogKid on Fri Sep 02, 2011 6:26 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Is It Just Me?

Post by Hybrid88 » Fri Sep 02, 2011 6:00 am

Stab Frenzy wrote:
Solderman wrote:[My only real fear is that of these vintage machines that continue working for the next 50 years, they will all soon end up in the hands of people who never put them in music anymore. It's one thing to play them and experience the joys of a vintage synthesizer. But everyone, certainly everyone on this forum, were inspired first by music made with them.
I thoroughly agree with you, and have been called elitist because of it many times. Somehow it's elitist to disagree with the idea that people who have lots of money can get whatever they want, whether they'll put it to good use or not.

Regardless, capitalism will continue to reign and we'll see less and less of these synths in the studios of people who can use them to create the songs that made them so sought-after in the first place. They'll end up in glass cases in the living rooms of rich people who loved Duran Duran when they were teenagers, like so many vintage guitars. Great.
Yes but as usual you ignore the reasons why there could be a valid counter argument to your opinion.

For example as well as being great musical instruments the VCS3's have a huge historical value to them and as such as well as being used by musicians there's no reason why the shouldn't equally be valued and preserved by collectors and fanatics. Case in point, I went to the Powerhouse museum in Sydney where they have some very rare and valuable EMS synths including the VCS3 behind glass in their exhibition. Now I don't think anyone would mind the fact that these are being preserved and appreciated for their historical significance by the average person on the street - what I'm saying is, in however many years time when the musicians have worn out all their VCS3's, this will still be there being appreciated for what it is and that to me is equally as important as some unheard of guy making JM Jarre covers in his studio that no one else will probably even hear...

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Re: Is It Just Me?

Post by cartesia » Fri Sep 02, 2011 6:46 am

I don't understand the point of preserving a synth if you can't hear it

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Re: Is It Just Me?

Post by Stab Frenzy » Fri Sep 02, 2011 7:06 am

Hossinfeffa wrote:I pretty much agree with this too, but some other factors should be considered. With usage comes age and wear. The people that do make use of these instruments will cause wear, no matter how careful they are. After a while they will start to break down more and more. If they are not discrete, parts will become more and more scarce.
True, things will wear out from use. However if you don't use them then there's no point in them not being worn out, an unused synth in perfect condition makes the same sound as a broken synth, ie. nothing. It's like those people who keep their couches covered in plastic from the store. Sure underneath the couch is in perfect unstained condition, but you go through life sitting on an uncomfortable, sweaty, crinkly couch.

I'm advocating usage and maintenance by the way, not just usage to destruction.
Hybrid88 wrote:Yes but as usual you ignore the reasons why there could be a valid counter argument to your opinion.
It's generally accepted that when stating your case for something you don't argue the opposite to what you believe. That would be confusing and counterproductive. ;) I disagree with the counter arguments to my opinion, not ignore them.
Hybrid88 wrote:For example as well as being great musical instruments the VCS3's have a huge historical value to them and as such as well as being used by musicians there's no reason why the shouldn't equally be valued and preserved by collectors and fanatics. Case in point, I went to the Powerhouse museum in Sydney where they have some very rare and valuable EMS synths including the VCS3 behind glass in their exhibition. Now I don't think anyone would mind the fact that these are being preserved and appreciated for their historical significance by the average person on the street - what I'm saying is, in however many years time when the musicians have worn out all their VCS3's, this will still be there being appreciated for what it is and that to me is equally as important as some unheard of guy making JM Jarre covers in his studio that no one else will probably even hear...
I'm not talking about some dude doing covers in he basement that never see the light of day, I'm talking about instruments getting into working studios and getting used on tracks by people who push things in new directions that haven't been tried before.

What's the point of a fully functional synth sitting in a glass box in a museum? Might as well keep using it until it completely dies and can't be repaired any more and then put it in the museum. :idea:

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Re: Is It Just Me?

Post by Hybrid88 » Fri Sep 02, 2011 7:36 am

That's fine I was merely saying it's always good to see things from the other point of view before you make up your mind that's all.

For what it's worth I do actually agree with you, but my point was to see things from the other perspective first and not automatically think that other opinions are always wrong just because you don't agree with them ;)

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Re: Is It Just Me?

Post by tekkentool » Fri Sep 02, 2011 9:38 am

I'd be incredibly happy if in 50 years no synthesizers from the past are being used in music whatsoever because they are physically incapable of producing the tones necessary. Unfortunately progress just doesn't happen that way...

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Re: Is It Just Me?

Post by Stab Frenzy » Fri Sep 02, 2011 9:54 am

Hybrid88 wrote:That's fine I was merely saying it's always good to see things from the other point of view before you make up your mind that's all.

For what it's worth I do actually agree with you, but my point was to see things from the other perspective first and not automatically think that other opinions are always wrong just because you don't agree with them ;)
I'm unsure why you might think that's what I was doing. I understand the perspective of 'I want that, I can afford it, I'm getting it', it's one of the easiest things in the world to wrap your head around.

Anyway, I now have a sweet number of posts so I'm not gonna post again for a little while. The last word is yours... :D

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Re: Is It Just Me?

Post by Hybrid88 » Fri Sep 02, 2011 10:23 am

Yeah, sorry if I've got the wrong impression of your posts.

Put it this way though, I can see why collectors of classic cars like to keep their Aston DB5 "behind glass" so to speak, I mean whilst it would be cool to use one as an everyday car, I wonder how many would be prepared to when there are so many other viable options to get from A to B? :geek:

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Re: Is It Just Me?

Post by Pro5 » Fri Sep 02, 2011 12:27 pm

Stab Frenzy wrote:They'll end up in glass cases in the living rooms of rich people who loved Duran Duran when they were teenagers, like so many vintage guitars. Great.
Damn, you're onto my scheme! :lol:


(now i just need to achieve the 'rich' part)

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Re: Is It Just Me?

Post by pflosi » Fri Sep 02, 2011 3:13 pm

JJQ wrote: Pflosi, I noticed that its quite complicated for me to discuss Marx in english but Im with you. If everobody would spend all their money on second-hand synthesizers, and not participate in circulation of surplus-value creating commodities, capitalism eventually would colapse. But I think the realestatemarket is much closer to achive that goal :)
Yeah it's not easy for me either in english. But we try to make the best out of it ;) I don't think that capitalism can collapse by "itself" though, the people must consciously dispose it

More to follow soon I hope (bit busy right now), and sorry for the thread hijack :)

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