Is It Just Me?

Discussions about anything analog, digital, MIDI, synth technology, techniques, theories and more.
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madtheory
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Re: Is It Just Me?

Post by madtheory » Sat Sep 10, 2011 7:40 pm

clubbedtodeath wrote:
madtheory wrote:Ya, IIRC many studies show that 90% of communication (when in person) is non verbal.
I don't know about you, but I use verbs every time I communicate.
Nah, you've had better jokes.

And yes, and that's only 10% of what you actually communicate.

What am I saying, you can probably cite the damn paper off the top of your head!

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Re: Is It Just Me?

Post by clubbedtodeath » Sat Sep 10, 2011 9:37 pm

madtheory wrote:Nah, you've had better jokes.
Well, that makes one of us then.

Last edited by clubbedtodeath on Sat Sep 10, 2011 9:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Is It Just Me?

Post by Automatic Gainsay » Sat Sep 10, 2011 9:39 pm

b3groover wrote:
Automatic Gainsay wrote:
tekkentool wrote:What is wrong with the interface of
P08's or voyagers? What would you fix?
I am not a fan of the Voyager interface. It has a big black hole and a tiny glowing screen right in the middle of the flow.
Fair enough, though I'd like to point out that the screen, control buttons, and touchscreen take up about 4" on a control surface that's 31" wide or in other words a mere 12% of the surface area.

I love my Voyager. I've tried many other pieces in an attempt to replace it (due to it's weight and expense... I'm always nervous taking it on a gig) but there's nothing that comes close to the immediacy of the interface, the expansion options, and of course the tone. :)
Image

I'll admit my math isn't awesome, but my experience of the touchscreen was a bit more than 12%. Looking at this picture, which might be horribly deceiving, it seems more like 20%. Still, that's immaterial. It is dead in the center of the keyboard, where I don't have a hand leaving my body. I think it would have been much more effective to the left. Also, I think it would have been more effective it it was more effective. Ideally, a control matrix which allowed you to set X and Y with knobs would have been a thousand times better, in my opinion.

I know I have the image of being a Moog-worshipping analog elitist, but I have to say that while I think you'd be hard-pressed to find a better combination of sound, functionality, and quality in a modern analog synth, I've never been a big fan of the tone. It definitely sounds analog, but my analog tone tastes run to the vintage, where the difference between analog and digital are far more distinct.
All of that being said, it's still my plan to purchase an Old School. :)
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Re: Is It Just Me?

Post by b3groover » Sat Sep 10, 2011 10:30 pm

It probably would've made more sense on the left side, yes. As cool as it is, I don't find myself using it much either. I do like how it responds, though. Imagine my dismay when I bought a Novation ReMOTE SL with a 2" x 2" assignable touch sensitive square pad on the left side (right under the mod and pitch wheels) and it responds like complete s**t. It's basically useless.

One other nitpick with the Voyager: It should have dedicated octave buttons over by the wheels. Menu diving to change octaves is just downright silly.

I have never owned a vintage Minimoog. I've of course heard them on countless recordings, videos, etc. and I agree that the Voyager does not sound the same. That said, compared to a plug-in or VA or other digital synth, the Voyager sounds plenty analog and is the best sounding modern analog I've heard. Granted, I haven't heard them all, but it's damn nice.

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Re: Is It Just Me?

Post by Stab Frenzy » Sun Sep 11, 2011 3:10 am

Cumulus wrote:
Stab Frenzy wrote:
Cumulus wrote:I think you may have mis-read my post or I just did not word it correctly. I was trying to say that the interface IS important to the performer but not very important (if at all) to the listener.
Nope, my point is the listener will hear something else altogether if the person they're listening to a recording of wasn't inspired when they recorded it. :idea:
Fair enough. You're right about that but that problem would be the easiest one to fix. If they came out with a perfect emulation of, say a CS-80, reproducing the interface would be easy. They could even make a better interface than the original had. <----BLASPHEMY!
If it's so easy why hasn't anyone done it yet? Is there even a keyboard on the market with poly AT right now?

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Re: Is It Just Me?

Post by ninja6485 » Sun Sep 11, 2011 7:01 am

tekkentool wrote:Because lasers (ส้้้้้้้้้้้้้้้้้้้้้้้้้้้้้้้้้้้้้้้้้้้้้้้้้้้้้้้้้ ωส้้้้้้้้้้้้้้้้้้้้้้้้้้้้้้้้้้้้้้้้้้้้้้้้้้้้้้้้้)
/ thread.
This looks like a psychotropic reaction. No wonder it's so popular...

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Re: Is It Just Me?

Post by arpmaniac » Sun Sep 11, 2011 9:11 am

I think that you underestimate the today technology.
Today synths are what they are because manufacturers want to, not because they don't know how to do it. Today technology has the potential to make better CS-80's and JP-8's, but the final desicion is always a compromise.
Keyboard with poly aftertouch today exists, but it's, quess, expensive.

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Re: Is It Just Me?

Post by nvbrkr » Sun Sep 11, 2011 9:29 am

b3groover wrote:It probably would've made more sense on the left side, yes. As cool as it is, I don't find myself using it much either. I do like how it responds, though. Imagine my dismay when I bought a Novation ReMOTE SL with a 2" x 2" assignable touch sensitive square pad on the left side (right under the mod and pitch wheels) and it responds like complete s**t. It's basically useless.

One other nitpick with the Voyager: It should have dedicated octave buttons over by the wheels. Menu diving to change octaves is just downright silly.

I have never owned a vintage Minimoog. I've of course heard them on countless recordings, videos, etc. and I agree that the Voyager does not sound the same. That said, compared to a plug-in or VA or other digital synth, the Voyager sounds plenty analog and is the best sounding modern analog I've heard. Granted, I haven't heard them all, but it's damn nice.
Voyager RME has a really nice compact design in that sense. There's still enough room between the knobs for your fingers as well. You'll have to think about its placement though. Keeping it out of your immediate reach sort of misses the whole point. I like to keep it next to my computer keyboard.

It's odd that people still to this day haven't learned to put additional FX units in the Voyager's FX loop. If you place a vintage overdrive unit in that loop it will alter the overall "EQ curve" of the sound considerably and also introduce the type of distortion we associate with vintage units directly to the signal path itself. It won't necessarily sound like the original Minimoog that way either, but it sure will make it sound more like vintage synths in general. People shouldn't expect getting optimal results by placing just about any distortion pedal there though.

Best modern analog I've had in my hands too.

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Re: Is It Just Me?

Post by Stab Frenzy » Sun Sep 11, 2011 9:56 am

arpmaniac wrote:I think that you underestimate the today technology.
No. I worked in the industrial design department of a university until earlier this year, teaching the students how to use technology in their projects. I've got a good idea what's possible. :)
Today synths are what they are because manufacturers want to, not because they don't know how to do it.
Exactly. I don't think anyone was suggesting that synth manufacturers had forgotten how to make poly aftertouch since the 80s. :lol:
Today technology has the potential to make better CS-80's and JP-8's, but the final desicion is always a compromise.
I know that, I'm saying that designing and marketing a really good interface is harder than designing and marketing a really good sounding synth. Look at how long the DSI/Linn Tempest has taken compared to the mopho/tetra variations that have been pumped out in the meantime.
Keyboard with poly aftertouch today exists, but it's, quess, expensive.
Which synths available at the moment have poly aftertouch? I was under the impression that there weren't any, maybe I missed one.

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Re: Is It Just Me?

Post by arpmaniac » Sun Sep 11, 2011 11:11 am

Sorry that, it was not my intention to insult you.
I totally agree with you that the interface is more important than the sounds, i have yet to see a realy good one. I struggle with my OASYS, too many possibilities for me... :oops:
As far as the poly after, http://www.infiniteresponse.com/

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Re: Is It Just Me?

Post by madtheory » Sun Sep 11, 2011 12:26 pm

That's amazing!

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Re: Is It Just Me?

Post by Cumulus » Sun Sep 11, 2011 3:44 pm

Stab Frenzy wrote: If it's so easy why hasn't anyone done it yet? Is there even a keyboard on the market with poly AT right now?
I was going to post the Inifinte Response that is shown above. I don't know if they are still on the market or not but it certainly can be done. The fact that there are CS-80's in existence shows that the interface can be made. If nothing else, you could get some Chinese company to reverse-engineer the whole thing if you wanted to . It certainly CAN be done.

If there are none on the market now, it's not because the technology has been lost or anything. In fact, with today's technology I am pretty sure it would be easier than ever. I'm sure it has more to do with marketing and what plays well with focus groups compared with manufacturing costs and profit margins. In my statments above I was referinng simply to what could be done technologicaly, not what a major company would deem marketable and profitable.

My reasoning was that sound of these old synths is harder to reproduce than the mechanics of them and I stand by that statement.

The main point of that line of reasoning, though, was to say that even if someone made an exact replica of any particular analog synth - even if Bob Moog himself couldn't tell you which was which, there would still be people who would claim that the original is better, even if they couldn't tell which one of the two synths sitting on the table in front of them was the real one.

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Re: Is It Just Me?

Post by Automatic Gainsay » Sun Sep 11, 2011 7:53 pm

arpmaniac wrote:Today technology has the potential to make better CS-80's and JP-8's, but the final desicion is always a compromise.
Yeah, the improved CS-80s and JP-8s were all of the digital synths they made in the 80s. We all laughed about ridiculously arcane analog synths and cheered with pure euphoria for "better" synths like the DX7 and expecially the M1.

The point of great musical instrument design is that it is great because it is great. Making it "better" means essentially making something different (yes, Phil, I'm talking about your Novachord). And since the design was already so great that it became a classic, making it better is almost certainly going to be making it worse.

P.S. Everyone stop talking about poly aftertouch. Y'see, it requires a lot of physical acuity to use expressively, and worse than that, you actually have to play music on keys with your hands. You guys might as well be whining because a really great French Horn interface was never created for synths. :lol:
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Re: Is It Just Me?

Post by arpmaniac » Sun Sep 11, 2011 8:26 pm

I'm totally agree to your post in every matter, exept the DX-7.
I think that despite the antiergonomic and impossible to perform front panel, DX-7 is a unique synth, capable of extreme sound synthesis. For me, offering something diferent is progress. One more time hats-off to Yamaha, for the best analog synth and the best digital.
FM synthesis isn't dated, its classic.
I express a personal taste here, but i think that analog and FM are the two classic sound synthesis methods until now.

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Re: Is It Just Me?

Post by madtheory » Sun Sep 11, 2011 9:50 pm

Ya, poly aftertouch is useless unless you're a trained pianist.

Ingredients for modern CS80:
1. Arturia CS-80v
2. Your choice of weighted keyboard with assignable sliders and poly aftertouch, new or used.
3. Doepfer ribbon, Kurzweil expression mate, etc.

Improvements: memories, lighter, cheaper, more reliable.

Not improvements: Not quite the same sound...
...but the UI is there and IMO that's the key (I think someone else already made the same point?).

Alternatively, if all goes well, I would bet that these guys:
http://www.touchdigitalcontrollers.co.uk/
are going to make a CS80 controller (Kent Spong is a big fan).

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