G. Numan drops wise words - old vs new - blahblah

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Re: G. Numan drops wise words - old vs new - blahblah

Post by Stab Frenzy » Sun Apr 29, 2012 11:38 am

AnalogKid wrote:
Stab Frenzy wrote:
Have any of you guys seen Gary Numan playing live recently? I hate to say it but it's pretty embarrassing to watch...
I don't know. The audience seems to like it. I'm not a huge Gary Numan fan (I am a huge Ultravox fan, chomping at the bit waiting for the new Ultravox album that is finally being released in a few weeks). I saw Numan live a few years back, and I thought that he put on a great show. The place was packed, and he kept the energy level up the entire show.

I think that Numan's music sounds pretty darn good live. However, to each his own. Different people will have different musical tastes.

Here's a clip. Doesn't seem too embarrassing to me:

Audiences like a lot of things, that doesn't mean they're good.

A 50 year old dressing up like some cyberpunk teenager playing with a band of numetal douches is embarrassing, no two ways about it. This is footage from the actual festival I was at where he played, have a look:

[youtube][/youtube]

I was really looking forward to seeing him before this and it really bummed me out how bad it was. I really wanted to like it but it was just terrible.

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Re: G. Numan drops wise words - old vs new - blahblah

Post by bochelli » Sun Apr 29, 2012 12:39 pm

Gary makes time for his fans modern day so called artists take note when you are 50 + we will see if they still remember you.
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Re: G. Numan drops wise words - old vs new - blahblah

Post by AnalogKid » Sun Apr 29, 2012 1:47 pm

This notion that Kraftwerk was seminal in electronic music is as incorrect as the notion that Gary Numan is godfather of anything.
...but the fact of the matter is, they merely added an aesthetic to synthesizer pop which had already existed.
I have never heard any music historians who don't point to Kraftwerk as being the founders of the music genre that would later be called techno. Of course there was electroncic music before Kraftwerk came on the scene. Walter Carlos created Switched on Bach in 1968 and later did the electronic music soundtrack for A Clockwork Orange. There were a number of other electronic musicians as well. However, before Kraftwerk came along, electronic music didn't sound like what we would think of us synth pop/techno.

Here's a Kraftwerk song from 1975. The elements of techno are already here. All synths (no guitars) with synth bass and electronic drums (electronic drums that Kraftwerk invented/built themselves). Show me anything before Kraftwerk that sounds like synth pop/techno and I will no longer believe, along with many music historians, that Kraftwerk was seminal.


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Re: G. Numan drops wise words - old vs new - blahblah

Post by jaypodesta » Sun Apr 29, 2012 2:02 pm

AnalogKid wrote:I have never heard any music historians who don't point to Kraftwerk as being the founders of the music genre that would later be called techno.
'Suffice to say that Techno City is now regarded as one of the first recorded examples of the techno genre, and that Atkins, along with Derrick May and Kevin Saunderson, is now regarded as one of the founders of that fundamental shift in dancefloor aesthetics.' Jon Savage

Not to say that Kraftwerk weren't an influence, he also says. But the idea that they [Kraftwerk] founded techno seems a little strong.

So to recap - he is one music historian/writer who doesn't point to Kraftwerk being the founders of the music genre that would later be called techno.

What next - Kraftwerk founded dubstep ;)

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Re: G. Numan drops wise words - old vs new - blahblah

Post by AnalogKid » Sun Apr 29, 2012 2:31 pm

Automatic Gainsay wrote:The term "electronic music" never breaks down until about 1970, where people started applying it to rock with synthesizers in it.
Yeah, in the 70s, the word electronic was applied to different musical forms that were sometimes difficult to define. So, they applied the generic term electronic.

When Kraftwerk appeared on German television in 1978, the host who introduced Kraftwerk says that (my paraphrase of the bit of German that I understand), for our next guests (Kraftwerk), the term rock music does not fit 100%. He then says that it is difficult to categorize their music. The host then says that their sound includes classic and rock elements, but that also doesn't describe their music 100%. The host then goes on to say that perhaps their sound can be described as "science fiction music" or "electronic rock."


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Re: G. Numan drops wise words - old vs new - blahblah

Post by AnalogKid » Sun Apr 29, 2012 2:50 pm

'Suffice to say that Techno City is now regarded as one of the first recorded examples of the techno genre, and that Atkins, along with Derrick May and Kevin Saunderson, is now regarded as one of the founders of that fundamental shift in dancefloor aesthetics.'[/i] Jon Savage
So to recap - he is one music historian/writer who doesn't point to Kraftwerk being the founders of the music genre that would later be called techno.
1) How much of an influence can someone be if hardly anyone has heard of them (Juan Atkins?)

2) According to the internet, Juan Atkins was born in 1962. That would make him 8 years old when Kraftwerk released their first album and 12 when Kraftwerk released their seminal Autobahn album.

3) Techno is a broad term. By techno I don't just mean the Detroit type of sound (frankly, that type of "techno" is not my cup of tea).

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Re: G. Numan drops wise words - old vs new - blahblah

Post by Re-Member » Sun Apr 29, 2012 5:48 pm

Stab Frenzy wrote:Audiences like a lot of things, that doesn't mean they're good.

A 50 year old dressing up like some cyberpunk teenager playing with a band of numetal douches is embarrassing, no two ways about it. This is footage from the actual festival I was at where he played, have a look:

[youtube][/youtube]

I was really looking forward to seeing him before this and it really bummed me out how bad it was. I really wanted to like it but it was just terrible.
I don't see how this is embarrassing at all. He's just wearing some black jeans and a t-shirt, which is fairly typical "rock show" attire. It's really no different than the Lou Reed look. From what I remember, the "Nu-Metal" look was more hip-hop/jock looking with everything being all baggy. It would be embarrassing if he came out wearing some of those costumes leftover from his youth, but a black t-shirt and jeans? Give him a break, haha. He's at least in good shape for his age. I remember seeing The Damned live ten years ago and the singer came out in a vampire cape and had a huge beer gut. Now that was embarrassing.

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Re: G. Numan drops wise words - old vs new - blahblah

Post by SKINNYPIG » Sun Apr 29, 2012 6:08 pm

Back on topic..............

Virus's instead of Moogs and an updated version of his 1979 lighting and stage set; fair enough, but where's the modern equivalent of that c**p little car thing he used to drive round the stage in? (skip to about 1 minute in)

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Re: G. Numan drops wise words - old vs new - blahblah

Post by Jinsai » Sun Apr 29, 2012 6:16 pm

I think what Numan is doing now is less "embarrassing" than trying to perfectly recreate his look and sound from 30+ years ago. Would we rather he was trying to go dubstep, with hoodies and Skrillex glasses?

I will freely admit to being a big Numan fan. I will also freely admit that he's made many records I think are absolutely awful, and that his "third act"/latest stuff is very same-y.

But he always does what he wants to do, and I respect him for that. People thought he was weird and out-of-touch at every stage of his career, and yet he still manages to have a career.

I'd still like to see him really innovate and push, rather than put out a slightly-better-sounding version of the same record he's been making for the last 15 years or so...but anything is preferable to another "Machine and Soul".

I saw him a few years back at the Fillmore in San Francisco. I didn't think the show was bad...I found it way more fun than most bands these days, that stand there and stare at their shoes.
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Re: G. Numan drops wise words - old vs new - blahblah

Post by JJQ » Sun Apr 29, 2012 6:31 pm

"1) How much of an influence can someone be if hardly anyone has heard of them (Juan Atkins?)"


Say what? If you point out someone as the founders of a music genre, wouldnt it be good to know about how the gengre started?
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Re: G. Numan drops wise words - old vs new - blahblah

Post by bochelli » Sun Apr 29, 2012 7:24 pm

Give the Guy a break ! Gary is still doing what he likes, he also has a passion,yes some of his stuff even i dont like however he offered something new not just the same every decade, One more thing on a show with Jools Holland he said someone out there has one of his Polymoogs supposed to be fixing, fix the poly or get in touch with gary and bloody give it back.
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Re: G. Numan drops wise words - old vs new - blahblah

Post by SKINNYPIG » Sun Apr 29, 2012 7:44 pm

bochelli wrote:One more thing on a show with Jools Holland he said someone out there has one of his Polymoogs supposed to be fixing, fix the poly or get in touch with gary and bloody give it back.
about fifteen years ago someone on the Sound on Sound gear for sale board was offering a broken 'ex Numan' polymoog for a couple of hundred quid! I wonder if it was this one!

the guy was based somewhere on the coast if I remember correctly, Southend maybe.

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Re: G. Numan drops wise words - old vs new - blahblah

Post by GuyaGuy » Sun Apr 29, 2012 7:50 pm

SKINNYPIG wrote:Back on topic..............

Virus's instead of Moogs and an updated version of his 1979 lighting and stage set; fair enough, but where's the modern equivalent of that c**p little car thing he used to drive round the stage in? (skip to about 1 minute in)
It's where he feels safest of all.

I kind of like the Battlestar Galaticta aesthetic.

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Re: G. Numan drops wise words - old vs new - blahblah

Post by Re-Member » Sun Apr 29, 2012 9:25 pm

Here's an article about his approach to recording and touring that has some funny quotes in it:

http://www.jaggedhalo-uk.com/creatingthenumansound.htm

He says the only analog synth he's saved throughout the years is locked up a basement and covered in rat poop, plus his vocals were done with a cheap Shure mic with a sock over it.

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Re: G. Numan drops wise words - old vs new - blahblah

Post by Automatic Gainsay » Mon Apr 30, 2012 1:58 am

AnalogKid wrote:I have never heard any music historians who don't point to Kraftwerk as being the founders of the music genre that would later be called techno.
Oh, really? And where exactly have you come across "music historians" talking about techno?
Techno, while awesome, was a derivation. It's electronic dance music without the pop melody, etc. It has validity because it was "let's shear away all of the pop communication and get straight to the dance." However, it is not new, unique, or relevant in regard to actual electronic music. And if that statement shocks you and pisses you off, then you know NOTHING about what happened from 1900-1970. "Electronic Music" was very specifically about a desire to be able to create new timbres using technology, and generating a means for composers to author music that was not entrenched in Western tradition or traditional instrumentation. It had not one f**k jot to do with looking cool, making people dance, or embracing a pseudo-futuristic aesthetic. By the the goddamned time Kraftwerk came along, electronic music was very goddamned old... and if you don't know it, it just means you've been researching history from internet fanboys instead of understanding actual music history.

AnalogKid wrote: Of course there was electroncic music before Kraftwerk came on the scene. Walter Carlos created Switched on Bach in 1968 and later did the electronic music soundtrack for A Clockwork Orange. There were a number of other electronic musicians as well. However, before Kraftwerk came along, electronic music didn't sound like what we would think of us synth pop/techno.
Oh, really? You plainly know absolutely nothing. Have you ever listened to Wendy's [stop referencing "Walter." She was only "Walter" because the goddamned record companies forced her to adopt that name due to their inability to cope with the shocking situation of her alternative viewpoint. She was "Wendy" decades before you were born] music. You mention Clockwork Orange... have you actually LISTENED to "Timesteps?" Plainly not. There are some hardcore electronic aspects of that that musicians didn't embrace for another 15 years after it was released. You plainly haven't listened to a lot of Mort Garson or Delia Derbyshire, either. Don't just f**k make blind statements based upon what you've read on the internet. LISTEN TO THE MUSIC that isn't ignorantly lauded by people who have no understanding of the actual history of electronic music.
AnalogKid wrote:Here's a Kraftwerk song from 1975. The elements of techno are already here. All synths (no guitars) with synth bass and electronic drums (electronic drums that Kraftwerk invented/built themselves). Show me anything before Kraftwerk that sounds like synth pop/techno and I will no longer believe, along with many music historians, that Kraftwerk was seminal.
Why don't you do some f**k research that isn't based on what you love and wish? It's my job to prove s**t to you. I am an archivist at the Bob Moog Foundation who also has a degree in composition with an electronic music emphasis. Instead of requiring me to contest what you've plainly only f**k read on the internet, why don't you do some form and analysis, music history, and electronic music history research on your own? 1975 is LONG AFTER music had already been written with a dance beat and completely electronic sound sources. FIGURE IT OUT FOR YOURSELF.
Last edited by Automatic Gainsay on Mon Apr 30, 2012 2:03 am, edited 1 time in total.
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