Wavetable vs Transwave Synthesis

Discussions about anything analog, digital, MIDI, synth technology, techniques, theories and more.

Wavetable vs Transwave Synthesis

Postby impaler42 » Sun Jul 22, 2012 12:49 am

Could someone explain to me what exactly the differences are (if any) between wavetable and transwave synthesis? Im trying to weigh the strengths of the Waldorf XT vs the Ensoniq Fizmo in particular, but Im confused to how they differ in terms of synthesis.
electronic music forever

http://www.grainshifter.com[/url]
User avatar
impaler42
Supporting Member!
Supporting Member!
 
Posts: 262
Joined: Tue Mar 28, 2006 6:10 am
Location: Dallas
Real name: Shaikat
Gear: Ensoniq Fizmo, Yamaha FS1R, E-mu Ultra Proteus, Korg Wavestation SR, Waldorf Blofeld
Band: Grainshifter

Re: Wavetable vs Transwave Synthesis

Postby Ashe37 » Sun Jul 22, 2012 6:53 am

As the owner of a Blofeld, Ensoniq VFX and an SD-1, i tell you: little, if any :D
Ashe37
Moderator
Moderator
 
Posts: 3627
Joined: Mon Jan 19, 2009 3:43 pm
Location: Los Angeles, CA
Real name: Unpronounceable
Gear: Ensoniq SD-1/32,SQR,VFX,ESQm
Virus Indigo, M3-61 , MS2000BR, Volca Bass
Emu XL-7, Matrix 6r
TG-33, K3m, Blofeld, Micron, Mopho, BS II, JV-1080
Band: Eridani V

Re: Wavetable vs Transwave Synthesis

Postby impaler42 » Sun Jul 22, 2012 8:13 am

Thanks for your reply. I was strongly considering getting a Fizmo, in part because I was allured by "transwave synthesis". But Ive been doing a lot of reading and it seems like there isn't much of a distinction between transwave and wavetable synthesis. Also, Ive heard many of the wavetable synths (particularly in the Waldorf family) are more powerful and versatile than the Fizmo. Im now considering getting a Blofeld. Since you have one, what do you think of it?
electronic music forever

http://www.grainshifter.com[/url]
User avatar
impaler42
Supporting Member!
Supporting Member!
 
Posts: 262
Joined: Tue Mar 28, 2006 6:10 am
Location: Dallas
Real name: Shaikat
Gear: Ensoniq Fizmo, Yamaha FS1R, E-mu Ultra Proteus, Korg Wavestation SR, Waldorf Blofeld
Band: Grainshifter

Re: Wavetable vs Transwave Synthesis

Postby Ashe37 » Sun Jul 22, 2012 2:16 pm

impaler42 wrote:Thanks for your reply. I was strongly considering getting a Fizmo, in part because I was allured by "transwave synthesis". But Ive been doing a lot of reading and it seems like there isn't much of a distinction between transwave and wavetable synthesis. Also, Ive heard many of the wavetable synths (particularly in the Waldorf family) are more powerful and versatile than the Fizmo. Im now considering getting a Blofeld. Since you have one, what do you think of it?



I lie the Blofeld, I use it as a combination VA and wavetable synth, as dose my roomate/bandmate use his. I also have two Ensoniq wavetable synths, a VFX and SD-1/32... I use these because they combine wabetable synthesis with rompler-type synthesis (layered samples) and I like the sound of them and can get quite a bit from them. The difference between those and the FIZMO is that the FIZMO is all wavetables, no standard samples, plus the FIZMO filter is resonant and it has an arp. The Blofeld is a lot more modern, and easier to understand than the FIZMO (partly because they went cheap with the display on the FIZMO), more flexible and has more centralized mod routings.
Ashe37
Moderator
Moderator
 
Posts: 3627
Joined: Mon Jan 19, 2009 3:43 pm
Location: Los Angeles, CA
Real name: Unpronounceable
Gear: Ensoniq SD-1/32,SQR,VFX,ESQm
Virus Indigo, M3-61 , MS2000BR, Volca Bass
Emu XL-7, Matrix 6r
TG-33, K3m, Blofeld, Micron, Mopho, BS II, JV-1080
Band: Eridani V

Re: Wavetable vs Transwave Synthesis

Postby mharris80 » Sun Jul 22, 2012 5:40 pm

impaler42 wrote:Thanks for your reply. I was strongly considering getting a Fizmo, in part because I was allured by "transwave synthesis". But Ive been doing a lot of reading and it seems like there isn't much of a distinction between transwave and wavetable synthesis. Also, Ive heard many of the wavetable synths (particularly in the Waldorf family) are more powerful and versatile than the Fizmo. Im now considering getting a Blofeld. Since you have one, what do you think of it?


One thing to keep in mind: tracking down a Fizmo would be no small task. They only made roughly 500 keyboards and 50 rack units. When it came out, few people knew what to make of the thing and they ended up blowing them out for $400 apiece.
mharris80
Junior Member
Junior Member
 
Posts: 196
Joined: Tue Dec 18, 2007 9:24 pm
Location: Robinson, IL
Gear: Korg M1
MicroKorg
Ensoniq ASR 88
Ensoniq ESQ-1
Roland JX-8P
Roland MKS-50
Yamaha RX7
M Audio Oxygen 49
AV Linux

Re: Wavetable vs Transwave Synthesis

Postby Bitexion » Sun Jul 22, 2012 5:47 pm

Blofelds are easily available, and very cheap considering what you get.
2 wavetable oscillators with dozens of tables to sweep (and your bog standard VA waveforms at the end of each), a third that only does VA waveforms, loads of filter models (including a ppg wave 2.x model), good effects, arpeggiator etc etc.
User avatar
Bitexion
Synth Explorer
Synth Explorer
 
Posts: 4230
Joined: Fri Apr 15, 2005 7:43 pm
Location: Drammen, Norway
Gear: Alesis Andromeda A6
Roland D-50
Creamware Minimax
Yamaha DX7s
Analogue Systems modular
Ensoniq SQ-80
Waldorf Blofeld

Re: Wavetable vs Transwave Synthesis

Postby impaler42 » Sun Jul 22, 2012 7:13 pm

I guess my interests in the FIzmo relate to its unique sound. Ive heard many accounts that it can create sounds that you cant achieve with other wavetable synths. But many people have also said its kind of a one trick pony, good for only evolving pads and experimental sounds. I guess I wouldnt so much mind that, since Im looking for sounds similar to the ones used by Tangerine Dream/Klaus Schulze in a lot of their works.

As far as it being rare, I am dealing with someone locally who is selling one for $1000. Im trying to figure out if its a worthy investment. If its sounds are truly unique and you cant achieve them with other synths, then I think it may be worth it.
electronic music forever

http://www.grainshifter.com[/url]
User avatar
impaler42
Supporting Member!
Supporting Member!
 
Posts: 262
Joined: Tue Mar 28, 2006 6:10 am
Location: Dallas
Real name: Shaikat
Gear: Ensoniq Fizmo, Yamaha FS1R, E-mu Ultra Proteus, Korg Wavestation SR, Waldorf Blofeld
Band: Grainshifter

Re: Wavetable vs Transwave Synthesis

Postby rhino » Sun Jul 22, 2012 7:49 pm

I may well catch h**l from FIZMO owners, but I suggest you try an Ensoniq VFX, or SD. They are limited in the number of transwaves onboard, but the idea is there - along with LFOs and filters enough that you (IMHO) get close for a lot less $$ (vfx = 200, sd = 350-400). The FIZ is a landmark synth - just saying spend some time with the other Ensoniq boards of that era and see what you think.
When the wise man points to the stars, the fool looks at the finger.
- Confucius
User avatar
rhino
Supporting Member!
Supporting Member!
 
Posts: 2596
Joined: Sat Aug 02, 2008 5:00 pm
Location: kentucky hills
Real name: bill
Gear: keepers:
Kurzweil K2500x
Ensoniq TS-12
Yamaha SY-99
Alesis QS-8
Roland JD-800
Roland JX-10
Akai AX-80
Ensoniq SQ-80
Korg DSS-1
Moog Mini
Fizmo

Re: Wavetable vs Transwave Synthesis

Postby suitandtieguy » Mon Jul 23, 2012 5:58 am

rhino wrote:I may well catch h**l from FIZMO owners, but I suggest you try an Ensoniq VFX, or SD.


you'll catch no h**l from me.

i traded my FIZZMO for a broken XTK and didn't look back. then i sold the XTK, bought a Blofeld Keyboard and a few expensive nights out, and didn't look back again.

the VFX is something i might pick up sometime. i'd like to play with the Ensoniq "thing" but the FIZMO is really a total abortion of a UI with many parameters hidden from view and no way to initialise to a basic patch.

the Blofeld has some real issues with parameter modulation range and response to modulation but it's the best wavetable synth if you want something you can actually gig with.
http://stgsoundlabs.com is where i sell things
http://suitandtieguy.com is my personal/music website
http://suitandtieguy.livejournal.com is my LJ, no blogistan for STG yo.
User avatar
suitandtieguy
Newbie
Newbie
 
Posts: 65
Joined: Sun Apr 09, 2006 8:56 am
Location: Chillicothe IL USA

Re: Wavetable vs Transwave Synthesis

Postby balma » Mon Jul 23, 2012 7:00 pm

An example easy to understand:

If the Fizmo would have the word "hello", you can use a knob or another parameter to go through the "hello" word back and forward, while keeping the key pressed.
You stay looping on the Hhhhhh, move the knob a little bit to the right, and then go to the Eeeeeee, then to the Llllll, to the Ooooo...move it again to the left, and yo go backwards to the Hhhh again. You can go to a certain point of a sound, and keep looping there, and then moving again, while holding the note.

On transwave synthesis, you can scan through a sound´s spectrum without having to retrigger it from the beginning.
On normal romplers/samplers, ,if you want to advance to the middle or the end of a sound, you must, advance moving to the new start point, and then playing the note again. But you can´t do this on realtime, while holding the sound. Transwave synthesis can do it.


I think that´s the most relevant thing from the couple of transwave synths released by Ensoniq on the nineties. Other instruments can do similar stuff, but not in realtime. Emu romplers, can assign the start point of a sample, and loop section, to any parameter. (LFOs or ADSR envelopes can control the start point of samples) but you must retrigger the note to hear the effect.


Fizmo has a unique sound and it´s almost impossible to recreate it with any other machine. . That´s a fact. But that does not makes it a better synth than others for the price the go today. I paid around $600 for mine.
Today they are f**k expensive and I think each Fizmo being sold these days ,had a lot of previous owners.

Transwave technology is f**k great. But why not adding this technology to a synth with 256+ waves??? you have this unique realtime stuff, for 56 waves only...... and goddammed, some of them are kind of cheesy.

Now, a transwave sampler... that would make my pants wet....
His sex dungeons are rumored to hold hundreds of people in secret locations around the world.
https://soundcloud.com/balma
User avatar
balma
Synth Explorer
Synth Explorer
 
Posts: 2846
Joined: Mon Oct 27, 2008 3:52 pm
Location: Costa Rica
Real name: Mauricio
Gear: DSI Tempest/Prophet 08/Roland V-Synth/Ensoniq Fizmo/E-mu MP7-XL7/Electribe ESX1/Radias/Waldorf MicroQ

Re: Wavetable vs Transwave Synthesis

Postby impaler42 » Mon Jul 23, 2012 7:29 pm

Thanks Balma for your useful example. I think Im going to go ahead and purchase the Fizmo. Ive always wanted one, and given their rarity, it seems like it wouldn't be difficult to sell it if I don't end up liking it.
electronic music forever

http://www.grainshifter.com[/url]
User avatar
impaler42
Supporting Member!
Supporting Member!
 
Posts: 262
Joined: Tue Mar 28, 2006 6:10 am
Location: Dallas
Real name: Shaikat
Gear: Ensoniq Fizmo, Yamaha FS1R, E-mu Ultra Proteus, Korg Wavestation SR, Waldorf Blofeld
Band: Grainshifter

Re: Wavetable vs Transwave Synthesis

Postby mharris80 » Mon Jul 23, 2012 7:49 pm

balma wrote:An example easy to understand:
Now, a transwave sampler... that would make my pants wet....


Vintage Synth Explorer wrote:In this light, the ASR-10 basically looks like an advanced TranseWave (waveform modulation) synthesizer in which YOU create its WaveSamples!


Now if only that was more than halfway true... I think they were on the right track with the ASR, but didn't quite get there. (Too few envelopes, for one thing) Such a shame what Creative Labs did to Ensoniq.
mharris80
Junior Member
Junior Member
 
Posts: 196
Joined: Tue Dec 18, 2007 9:24 pm
Location: Robinson, IL
Gear: Korg M1
MicroKorg
Ensoniq ASR 88
Ensoniq ESQ-1
Roland JX-8P
Roland MKS-50
Yamaha RX7
M Audio Oxygen 49
AV Linux

Re: Wavetable vs Transwave Synthesis

Postby balma » Mon Jul 23, 2012 10:08 pm

impaler42 wrote:Ive always wanted one, and given their rarity, it seems like it wouldn't be difficult to sell it if I don't end up liking it.


Just be sure to get one with the power supply issue solved.
The best sounds I´ve got from the Fizmo, were pure luck. f**k synth, avoids all deterministic methods to obtain a specific sound, but from time to time, delivers something magical. But there will be a lot of c**p on the way....
Transwave synthesis gives a lot of control over sounds. You can loop on a specific segment of a sample without clicking, smooth transit over recorded waves. That´s real cool. Is a cool synth, but... wtf... how do I get that sound again..? :roll:
His sex dungeons are rumored to hold hundreds of people in secret locations around the world.
https://soundcloud.com/balma
User avatar
balma
Synth Explorer
Synth Explorer
 
Posts: 2846
Joined: Mon Oct 27, 2008 3:52 pm
Location: Costa Rica
Real name: Mauricio
Gear: DSI Tempest/Prophet 08/Roland V-Synth/Ensoniq Fizmo/E-mu MP7-XL7/Electribe ESX1/Radias/Waldorf MicroQ

Re: Wavetable vs Transwave Synthesis

Postby ninja6485 » Tue Jul 24, 2012 12:10 am

balma wrote:how do I get that sound again..?
Somewhere I have a sample of a sound from the fizmo that sounds almost identical to birds chirping in a rainforest canopy. Never got that one back, lol.

I just got sounddiver working on my laptop - I needed a newer version then the one I was struggling with. I had no idea how much was under the hood, and I've had it for almost a year. Here's a screen shot of the edit page. Note the size of the scroll bar. This image contains all of oscillator 1 and some of oscillator 2. They each have a different bank of transwaves.
There is then 3 more sounds each with 2 oscillators.
Image
Before sounddiver, I didn't even know it had two filters per oscillator! Also, you'll notice there are at least 9 controlls per envelopes. The Fizmo offers 4 on the front pannal. the other 5 depend on the patch before you edited it! I should add that you can initialize a patch from the editor, and if you save it to one of the banks, you can copy it anywhere you like.

It's really not overly complicated to program, but some of it's charm lies in the mystery of tweaking its knobs, never really knowing what it will do next. It's nice to know if you get frutrated you can approach it logically. Obviously nothing this complex is really a one trick pony, but it seems certain types of sounds are just...more fun to do on the fizmo.
This looks like a psychotropic reaction. No wonder it's so popular...
User avatar
ninja6485
Synth Explorer
Synth Explorer
 
Posts: 2746
Joined: Sun Apr 19, 2009 10:13 pm
Location: Exton/ westchester
Gear: Virus Ti, Jx-8p, Juno 60, Radias, Maschine, 101,303,606,707,727,808,909, odyssey, mirage, akai s5K/s2K/s1k, drumtraks, E6400ult, M1R, rx5, fizmo,d50
Band: Lyra, The Sun Worshipers

Re: Wavetable vs Transwave Synthesis

Postby Ashe37 » Tue Jul 24, 2012 12:35 am

And believe it or not, that is *simplified* form the VFX/SD series... 11 stage envelopes, and up to six oscillators per patch.
Ashe37
Moderator
Moderator
 
Posts: 3627
Joined: Mon Jan 19, 2009 3:43 pm
Location: Los Angeles, CA
Real name: Unpronounceable
Gear: Ensoniq SD-1/32,SQR,VFX,ESQm
Virus Indigo, M3-61 , MS2000BR, Volca Bass
Emu XL-7, Matrix 6r
TG-33, K3m, Blofeld, Micron, Mopho, BS II, JV-1080
Band: Eridani V

Next

Return to General Synthesizers

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Bing [Bot] and 20 guests