Modern monosynth prices VS polysynth prices

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Re: Modern monosynth prices VS polysynth prices

Post by madmarkmagee » Thu Jan 31, 2013 1:20 pm

volumetrik wrote:
Uhhhhmmmmmm... Huh? :|
Do you know why it was $5000 back then? Because it used expensive computer parts like memory, CPU etc. I suppose you think a MiniBrute back then was $1500?

Now the reason I asked about Gaia is that it is an old school style VA, now who would buy such design if the market for such things is so tiny? Do you think if it had an analog board it wouldn't have sold just as good?

That doesn't really address the fact you didn't factor in inflation when you made the wild remark about how cheap Jupiter 8's were back in the day compared to now.

Minibrute is cheap cause obviously all technology has gotten cheaper, and because Arturia pays its Chinese slaves.. uhm.. I mean workers 2 dollars an hour.

There is demand for something like the Gaia cause it is cheap knoby and has lots of polyphony. The question is whether or not there is market space for a more expensive analog poly. lets see. Minbrute = 1 voice 500 dollars. Gaia= lots and lots of voice = 600 dollars.

We also have to remember that neither the minibrute or the MS-20 have patch memory. I think that a big company like Korg or Roland could develop a cheap mass produced analogue poly using third world labor but that it would only be a few hundred dollars cheaper then the DSI stuff so again the question is whether there is market room for it considering the cost of development.

In regard to the question, there is only really one moderately mainstream company' which produces analogue polys and the price of those poly's compared with the monophonic versions appear to be reasonable. Every voice you add increases to an extent the amount of components and chips you need to add.

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Re: Modern monosynth prices VS polysynth prices

Post by volumetrik » Thu Jan 31, 2013 1:58 pm

madmarkmagee wrote:
volumetrik wrote:
Uhhhhmmmmmm... Huh? :|
Do you know why it was $5000 back then? Because it used expensive computer parts like memory, CPU etc. I suppose you think a MiniBrute back then was $1500?

Now the reason I asked about Gaia is that it is an old school style VA, now who would buy such design if the market for such things is so tiny? Do you think if it had an analog board it wouldn't have sold just as good?

That doesn't really address the fact you didn't factor in inflation when you made the wild remark about how cheap Jupiter 8's were back in the day compared to now.
WTF has inflation got to do with todays part prices? My wild remark didn't imply how cheap originally it was, its how cheaper it can be done TODAY compared to that price.
madmarkmagee wrote:Minibrute is cheap cause obviously all technology has gotten cheaper, and because Arturia pays its Chinese slaves.. uhm.. I mean workers 2 dollars an hour.
Well duh.

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Re: Modern monosynth prices VS polysynth prices

Post by madmarkmagee » Thu Jan 31, 2013 2:23 pm

Ok you weren't implying that, it just seemed that way when I and others read it. Sorry. (:

Ok, when they release this new Jupiter 8, I doubt it could cost less then say a prophet 08 and would probably cost a good bit more. The fact of the matter is that two thirds of the people who say they want a new Jupiter 8 would shun it cause it cost 8 times as much as their microkorg and the other third wouldn't be that big a group to warrant the massive amount of money it would cost for R and D and mass production. Jupiter 8's only go for as much as they do cause there rare and perceived as being "the best". Your average consumer (where the money is), isn't going to go out and spend 3000/4000 dollars on the best keyboard he can find in a shop. That's why these companies like the cheap mono's. mortals want/ mortals can afford.

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Re: Modern monosynth prices VS polysynth prices

Post by pflosi » Thu Jan 31, 2013 3:01 pm

volumetrik wrote:
pflosi wrote:
volumetrik wrote:I think the market is bigger than it was in the 70s/80s, there were like 3000 Jupiter-8s made, surely today theres more than 3000 who want one, they originally cost like $5295 and now they go for $7000? crazy
5'000$ in 1980 = 14'000$ in 2011... It's cheaper now than new. There's really not much 70/80ies gear fetching higher prices now than new back then if you adjust for inflation. Actually I think there's only the TB303 and that's about it...
Do you know why it was $5000 back then? Because it used expensive computer parts like memory, CPU etc. I suppose you think a MiniBrute back then was $1500?
:lol: You know how inflation works, right? You can't straight compare 1980-$ and 2011-$, it's just not an argument and that post was useless (no matter what the intention was exactly).

So say the equivalent price for a 1980-new JP8 in 2011-$ is 14k$; of course, memory and stuff is cheaper today, so let's generously half that price and you're exactly at the used prices. But that's very generous, actually the most expensive part of (analog) synths is the housing, proper power, proper keyboards and knobs and such (compare Mopho and Mopho Keyboard prices to see what I mean), not CPU.
volumetrik wrote:
volumetrik wrote:
Z wrote:Here we go again.

I'm assuming you mean analog polysynths. In today's digital age, the market for a polyphonic synth is very small.
Why did Roland put out the Gaia SH-01 then?
Now the reason I asked about Gaia is that it is an old school style VA, now who would buy such design if the market for such things is so tiny? Do you think if it had an analog board it wouldn't have sold just as good?
:| Dude, no offense but I don't get your way or arguing. It's a VA, we're talking analog here. Yes, I think if it had been an analog board, with 64 voices, it would not have sold so well, because it would have been like 100 times more expensive... :roll: A market is not what people *want* but what people are *willing to pay*... I, for example, would really want TONTO, but I'm neither willing nor able to pay for such a thing (let alone the room it would need)... ;)

BTW and off-topic, since when are we allowed to only embed 3 quotes within each other??? :shock: Had to re-do the whole quoting and let some stuff out... :|

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Re: Modern monosynth prices VS polysynth prices

Post by calaverasgrande » Thu Jan 31, 2013 8:57 pm

honestly, the current "analog synth craze" seems to be powered by Hip Hop, Dubstep and whatever they are calling Techno these days.
These are all styles which emphasize beat over melody, and melody which is almost always single note lines.
All you have to do is spend a little time at a decent sized house/techno/dubstep party to understand that nobody is concerned with parallel harmony in these circles. Excruciatingly so.
It just doesn't make sense to develop a poly because only old farts that want to sound like John Carpenter (like me) will buy them.
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Re: Modern monosynth prices VS polysynth prices

Post by volumetrik » Thu Jan 31, 2013 10:13 pm

pflosi wrote: :lol: You know how inflation works, right? You can't straight compare 1980-$ and 2011-$, it's just not an argument and that post was useless (no matter what the intention was exactly).

So say the equivalent price for a 1980-new JP8 in 2011-$ is 14k$; of course, memory and stuff is cheaper today, so let's generously half that price and you're exactly at the used prices. But that's very generous, actually the most expensive part of (analog) synths is the housing, proper power, proper keyboards and knobs and such (compare Mopho and Mopho Keyboard prices to see what I mean), not CPU.
The reason why the DSI stuff is so expensive is cos its all done in the US. Materials for such things is equivalent to like 2 computer cases, imho.

pflosi wrote:| Dude, no offense but I don't get your way or arguing. It's a VA, we're talking analog here. Yes, I think if it had been an analog board, with 64 voices, it would not have sold so well, because it would have been like 100 times more expensive... :roll: A market is not what people *want* but what people are *willing to pay*... I, for example, would really want TONTO, but I'm neither willing nor able to pay for such a thing (let alone the room it would need)... ;)
ok I meant that, if Gaia was analog and had 6 or 8 voices in the same plastic case etc it would be all over magazines, everyone would be talking about it, this forum would be all over it and Gearslutz would be all over it, so what I was trying to say that the market is not small. Of course I did not have 64 analog polyphony in mind.
Last edited by volumetrik on Thu Jan 31, 2013 11:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Modern monosynth prices VS polysynth prices

Post by pflosi » Thu Jan 31, 2013 11:17 pm

volumetrik wrote:So what I was trying to say that the market is not small.
:truce:

Yeah there certainly is a market, that's why the vintage classics fetch high prices (again, if you will) to begin with... The point I was trying to make was basically that it never was cheaper to be into analog, and generally music, than now. Monosynths or polysynths, doesn't really matter, there's a lot of stuff out there that's awesome and relatively affordable.

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Re: Modern monosynth prices VS polysynth prices

Post by calaverasgrande » Thu Jan 31, 2013 11:49 pm

pflosi wrote:The point I was trying to make was basically that it never was cheaper to be into analog, and generally music, than now.
Actually I seriously disagree with this.
In the 90's people were dumping their vintage gear. You could pick up analog synths for a fraction of what they go for now. Ebay used to be a cool place for nerds to go to buy gear. Now all the normal people know about it!
That and old music gear of all types is fetching absurd prices. There used to be a time when the only old Fenders anyone wanted were "pre-CBS" Strats and Teles. Now even the 70's and 80's guitars are "vintage" priced.
Ditto for synths. It used to only be some Arps, some Moogs and a few other models that had the vintage prices.
Now ALL of the old Moog and Arp stuff is crazy expensive.
It's like they say on Tapeop, don't pay too much lip service to any gear you like. Otherwise you will "Neve up" the prices of your coveted gear. Referring to vintage Neve mic pres which have always been dear, but went through the roof when they started showing up on ebay.
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Re: Modern monosynth prices VS polysynth prices

Post by pflosi » Fri Feb 01, 2013 12:05 am

Yeah sure there was a short period when you could get something nice for cheap. But the stuff was greatly undervalued. And look at all the great stuff coming out new - eurorack modular alone is crazy innovative, you can do everything you want for great prices. Look at what vintage guitars, proper grand pianos, orchester instruments and whatnot cost, good instruments have their price. The Gaia may look like a plastic toy next to a JP8, but a Buchla looks like a cheap toy next to a Stradivari as well.

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Re: Modern monosynth prices VS polysynth prices

Post by volumetrik » Fri Feb 01, 2013 12:19 am

madmarkmagee wrote:Your average consumer (where the money is), isn't going to go out and spend 3000/4000 dollars on the best keyboard he can find in a shop. That's why these companies like the cheap mono's. mortals want/ mortals can afford.
ok but maybe its possible to do for less? lets imagine a modern smaller plastic case Juno-60 (thats not trying to sound like a Juno-60) 6 or 8 voice, all modern features USB/MIDI and CV/Gate In/Out, patch storage, manufactured in China, how much would it be?

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Re: Modern monosynth prices VS polysynth prices

Post by StepLogik » Fri Feb 01, 2013 1:14 am

If you consider something like an analog version of the Roland SH-201 you could maybe do it for just under a grand USD.

If you look at the cost centers for older analog polys, the digital components (1 or more CPUs, DAC, ADC, ROM, RAM, lots of multiplexing logic so that only 1 ADC and DAC were needed, external UART for MIDI, etc) are all pretty much on board even the cheapest microcontrollers. Worst case, you need some external multiplexing or a couple of multichannel DAC/ADC depending on how many panel controls, voice channels, etc. But, theoretically, pretty much everything you need for an analog poly can be had in a cheap CPU.

Another cost center is the power supply: transformer, rectifiers, caps, voltage regulators, etc. Now, you can buy external OEM units with far superior performance (low ripple, low voltage drift, etc) for relatively cheap and save on the space, design cost, UL cert, etc.

On the flip side, analog components seem to be getting somewhat rare these days, depending on who you ask. So it is conceivable that the analog portion might very well be the most costly, even using modern SMT components.

Factor in the cheap plastic case and lower-quality hardware (knobs, jacks, switches) found on the SH-201 and you can clearly build it cheaper than using a metal chassis, wooden end caps, etc.

Do as much as you can in software (LFO's, EG's, mod routing), including even the oscillators as DCO's or at least "computune" VCO's to reduce hardware cost.

Given these criteria, I think you could do a 6 or 8 voice poly for less than a grand.

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Re: Modern monosynth prices VS polysynth prices

Post by bochelli » Fri Feb 01, 2013 1:19 am

Lets be honest China could have kicked out new polysynths cheap as chips anytime, they cant be that dumb, because they know it would not make $$$, thats why apple and others rule the world , dont think apple have not thought about it the smell of cash is always a winner.
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Re: Modern monosynth prices VS polysynth prices

Post by Don T » Fri Feb 01, 2013 1:56 am

.....
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Re: Modern monosynth prices VS polysynth prices

Post by volumetrik » Fri Feb 01, 2013 2:33 am

bochelli wrote:Lets be honest China could have kicked out new polysynths cheap as chips anytime, they cant be that dumb, because they know it would not make $$$, thats why apple and others rule the world , dont think apple have not thought about it the smell of cash is always a winner.
man you're sad

there are loads of untapped gold mines in different kinds of markets

yeah Apple has 130 billion in cash, but why would they go into synths, they might as well go into toasters and fridges haha

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Re: Modern monosynth prices VS polysynth prices

Post by tekkentool » Fri Feb 01, 2013 3:23 am

bochelli wrote:Lets be honest China could have kicked out new polysynths cheap as chips anytime, they cant be that dumb, because they know it would not make $$$, thats why apple and others rule the world , dont think apple have not thought about it the smell of cash is always a winner.
This is one of the most confusing things I've read on this forum.

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