Synth Deflation?

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volumetrik
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Re: Synth Deflation?

Post by volumetrik » Tue Feb 05, 2013 12:49 pm

Stab Frenzy wrote:It's nothing to do with quality at all (has anyone actually experienced how cheaply built the 303 is?) it's to do with rarity and exclusivity/status. Case in point is the 303, there are exact clones on the market now (with improvements to the sequencer which make them better for making music on without effecting the sound) and it hasn't brought the price down at all. People who want a 303 for making music can get a x0xb0x or bass bot tt for cheap, people who want to brag about the gear they own pay $2000+ for a 303. Watch the same thing happen with the MS-20.
its not just that, some people dream of owning a real 303 for the iconic look of it, these days they go for over $2400 in good condition, at the end of the day it isn't about how your instrument looks, but still some people just adore the look of that thing, and they would like one to be made by the original company, the Bass Bot TT is a parody of the 303 imho, it doesn't include a DINSYNC like the original. If Roland were to put out a 303 reissue it would offset the price of current vintage ones. too many people want em not enough of em around. Also if a 303 reissue was being sold today for cheap a lot of people would get a few units, some for mods and spares etc, but then would the same mods be harder to do if it were SMT?

A real 303 reissue is badly needed right now, just how much it would extend the life of it all, there were like 10,000 made and now a lot less left around, a lot of them were probably destroyed in fire, beyond repair due to failed mod attempts, and other issues and some people hoard them by getting like 4 units.

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Re: Synth Deflation?

Post by zoomtheline » Tue Feb 05, 2013 12:52 pm

Not hate. I have bought many vintage synths over newer ones just because of "the" sound. The only hate I have is towards people who try and command stupid prices for vintage synths. It's only going to make people think that it's "worth" that price... When It's not. I'm not trying to create hate for people that just want a synth to replicate a certain sound from their favourite artists either even though that seems odd to me as a concept but I guess is a perfectly legit reason to buy a synth and if it makes people happy the... horses for courses and all that.

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Re: Synth Deflation?

Post by Hybrid88 » Tue Feb 05, 2013 2:40 pm

volumetrik wrote:A real 303 reissue is badly needed right now...
Not sure that's what the world really needs at all.

If it's about the sound, get the X0Xb0X, if it's about looks get the Bass Bott. ;)

If anything, Roland needs to scale back diversification and concentrate on a few good products that musicians actually want. Not reissues, and def not uninspiring workstations. They need to tread the untrod, break new ground and not play it safe like they've been doing for far too long now. :geek:

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Re: Synth Deflation?

Post by newsynthfixx » Tue Feb 05, 2013 4:55 pm

The "Good Stuff" will stay high priced no matter what is on the market, might see a few lower end half rack tone modules suddenly appear for that last bit of cash or maybe a few third hand SH201`s...

Most likely outcome will be a few more "spares or repair" synths where the current owner can`t fix it themselves and the repair quote is getting halfway near the magic numbers that these new synths are selling for. So if you are handy with a soldering iron and can track down some parts this might be the chance :geek:


Definition "Good Stuff"..."Anything manufactured before 1985`ish that you reallyreallyreally want ;) "

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Re: Synth Deflation?

Post by silikon » Tue Feb 05, 2013 5:52 pm

Speaking strictly in terms of 'vintage', most any other interest group of vintage users (be it guitars, what-have-you) see limited differential in price adjustment to the original product. Just because you see a slight slump in prices on the original doesn't exactly tune into the idea that a re-issue will drive prices of the original down for any significant length of time.

Speaking strictly in terms of Analogue Synthesizers, given the fact that 303's have increased in price steadily (x0xb0x, FR Revolution, etc) Minimoog D's have increased in price (Voyager), And to a lesser extent the Prophet 5 (using the Prophet '08 as a loose comparison), I doubt anyone who's been in the industry for a length of time would expect the MS-20 to drop in price substantially. You simply don't have enough basis to make accurate predictions in this case. The MS-20 mini isn't even in people's hands yet and we're all speculating about the original price drop. If you're that caught up in the hype of the new offering, why give two shits? It wouldn't affect your purchase one iota, would it?

I could quote several ramblings in the industry as to why that is. The most prevalent reason given would most likely always be "because it's the original". Second to that would be "the original is better for x reason". I recall still to this day people comparing the Original Minimoog to the Voyager in terms of sound quality, no matter if the Voyager has many more options than the original. I also recall so many folks arguing even though many x0xb0x replicas used identical components and circuitry, they sounded different -- therefore, not as 'good' as the original, even though in most instances the original is far inferior to the newer hardware.

The whole notion that the industry needs more reboots of vintage gear is lost on me. My thoughts are that people should be supporting manufacturers that are innovating more than worrying about re-creations of vintage gear.

Even with the multitude of new instruments coming out as of late (far greater than just Arturia, Korg and DSI), prices on vintage gear haven't dropped substantially. Even with VST reboots of original hardware, amazing VA systems, etc, none of that has affected prices substantially.

Prices will continue to climb as long as there are people willing to pay those inflated prices to get it.
Hybrid88 wrote:They need to tread the untrod, break new ground
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Re: Synth Deflation?

Post by volumetrik » Tue Feb 05, 2013 10:25 pm

Hybrid88 wrote:
volumetrik wrote:A real 303 reissue is badly needed right now...
Not sure that's what the world really needs at all.

If it's about the sound, get the X0Xb0X, if it's about looks get the Bass Bott. ;)

If anything, Roland needs to scale back diversification and concentrate on a few good products that musicians actually want. Not reissues, and def not uninspiring workstations. They need to tread the untrod, break new ground and not play it safe like they've been doing for far too long now. :geek:
It's the 303/808/909 that's really needed right now imagine how many they would sell, and IMO they can be made for cheap, x0x clones just doesn't cut it for some people. Roland could make them again with more modern features like better OS/USB support etc that and along with some other innovative instrument that musicians want. The x0x reissues would probably generate more cash than some of the products they have now.

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Re: Synth Deflation?

Post by Stab Frenzy » Wed Feb 06, 2013 1:13 am

volumetrik wrote:
Stab Frenzy wrote:It's nothing to do with quality at all (has anyone actually experienced how cheaply built the 303 is?) it's to do with rarity and exclusivity/status. Case in point is the 303, there are exact clones on the market now (with improvements to the sequencer which make them better for making music on without effecting the sound) and it hasn't brought the price down at all. People who want a 303 for making music can get a x0xb0x or bass bot tt for cheap, people who want to brag about the gear they own pay $2000+ for a 303. Watch the same thing happen with the MS-20.
its not just that, some people dream of owning a real 303 for the iconic look of it
Bragging is bragging, whether to yourself or others. ;)
volumetrik wrote:It's the 303/808/909 that's really needed right now imagine how many they would sell, and IMO they can be made for cheap, x0x clones just doesn't cut it for some people.
The people who aren't happy with the clones (which sound as close to the 303 as one 303 does to another) are the nostalgia market who wouldn't be happy with a reissue anyway.
volumetrik wrote:Roland could make them again with more modern features like better OS/USB support etc that and along with some other innovative instrument that musicians want. The x0x reissues would probably generate more cash than some of the products they have now.
Roland have already done that whole 'modernise-the-303-adding-new-features' thing. The result was the MC-303, which was actually a bigger sales success for them than the original TB-303 which they ended up having to give away free with every JC-120 purchase to get rid of them all.

The Miami is an amazing 808 clone, a friend of mine has one and it's killer. Half the price of an original 808 too. As far as 909 clones go there's the 9090 project but it doesn't seem to be all that popular. I guess with the 909 there's less analogue magic that can't be captured by samples than the 808.

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Re: Synth Deflation?

Post by Stab Frenzy » Wed Feb 06, 2013 1:31 am

People seem to be missing the connection that more new analogues = a bigger market for analogue synths in general and greater demand for the finite supply of old analogues.

I started playing in a synth band at a time when turning up to a show without guitars and a drum kit was a very confusing thing for the house engineer. Nowdays fully synthetic bands are fairly common and a hugely increased number of bands have synths in them, for whatever reason.

Fifteen years ago analogues were cheap, there wasn't really an ebay market to jack up the price and you could buy a Juno to learn synthesis on for a couple of hundred bucks. People would come across these old synths that made cools sounds and use them to make music.

Ten years ago it used to be that little Jimmy would get a Microkorg for christmas and go start jamming with his friends, and then learn about the existence of analogue synths, hear they had mystical properties that made them 'better' and try to seek them out and play with them. Having an older instrument was also seen as having greater authenticity than a new thing that could be bought by anyone in the shops. Old analogue prices started going up.

Now that there are a bunch of analogues available new in stores people who don't know anything about synths will have sales staff at banjo centre telling them that analogue is better to upsell them an MS-20 mini or minibrute from a microkorg. Increased awareness of analogue will increase the market for analogue in general which will keep the prices of vintage analogue high and probably push them up at the bottom end of the market.

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Re: Synth Deflation?

Post by volumetrik » Wed Feb 06, 2013 2:14 am

Stab Frenzy wrote:Roland have already done that whole 'modernise-the-303-adding-new-features' thing. The result was the MC-303, which was actually a bigger sales success for them than the original TB-303 which they ended up having to give away free with every JC-120 purchase to get rid of them all.
I can see why, in the 90s when 303/808/909 was so popular again everyone wanted them and Roland gave them the MC-303 of course people are going to get it, they tried to get anything they could. But is the MC-303 revered today?
Stab Frenzy wrote:The Miami is an amazing 808 clone, a friend of mine has one and it's killer. Half the price of an original 808 too. As far as 909 clones go there's the 9090 project but it doesn't seem to be all that popular. I guess with the 909 there's less analogue magic that can't be captured by samples than the 808.
So you're saying Roland shouldn't make these things anymore because its stupid to do so, they should continue on with GAIA SH-01 or Ultranova-like gear?

Just wondering do you like vintage analog at all? from what I gather you think its overrated? You seem to support and defend things like GAIA, beat thang, ultranova etc stuff like that

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Re: Synth Deflation?

Post by tekkentool » Wed Feb 06, 2013 4:10 am

If the x0x doesn't cut it for some people those people are the kind of people who would talk up goon if it had an expensive label on it and/or have a sexual attraction to the roland Logo.
Stab Frenzy wrote: I guess with the 909 there's less analogue magic that can't be captured by samples than the 808.
I'm of the opinion that the 808 is better sampled too as you get to do fun stuff with pitching up and down the bass drum for a bassline.



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Re: Synth Deflation?

Post by Stab Frenzy » Wed Feb 06, 2013 4:49 am

volumetrik wrote:
Stab Frenzy wrote:Roland have already done that whole 'modernise-the-303-adding-new-features' thing. The result was the MC-303, which was actually a bigger sales success for them than the original TB-303 which they ended up having to give away free with every JC-120 purchase to get rid of them all.
I can see why, in the 90s when 303/808/909 was so popular again everyone wanted them and Roland gave them the MC-303 of course people are going to get it, they tried to get anything they could. But is the MC-303 revered today?
Roland are a business and their goal is to make a profit for their shareholders, not to make you or anyone else happy. The TB-303 lost them a lot of money, and the current high second-hand price doesn't turn them a profit at all. As far as Roland are concerned as a company the TB-303 was a massive disaster and one they don't want to repeat. They aren't trying to make instruments that will be revered in 15 years, they're trying to make instruments that people will buy right now. :thumbleft:
volumetrik wrote:
Stab Frenzy wrote:The Miami is an amazing 808 clone, a friend of mine has one and it's killer. Half the price of an original 808 too. As far as 909 clones go there's the 9090 project but it doesn't seem to be all that popular. I guess with the 909 there's less analogue magic that can't be captured by samples than the 808.
So you're saying Roland shouldn't make these things anymore because its stupid to do so, they should continue on with GAIA SH-01 or Ultranova-like gear?
I don't know where you got that idea from, reading comprehension doesn't seem to be your strong point. ;) I said that for people who want an instrument that sounds and operates like a TR-808 or TB-303 there are already options available at a fraction of the price of the originals, so you don't need to hold your breath waiting for Roland to remake them.
volumetrik wrote:Just wondering do you like vintage analog at all? from what I gather you think its overrated? You seem to support and defend things like GAIA, beat thang, ultranova etc stuff like that
Don't know where you got the idea I like the gaia and beat thang, perhaps your imagination is getting the better of you. The Ultranova is a really great synth, you should try one. It doesn't sound analogue but I don't need it to, I've got a heap of modular for that. Have you actually used much of this stuff? I only ask because you seem to think old = good and new = bad, but there's a lot more to it than that. Just like some new synths are really good, some old synths weren't good when they came out and still aren't good now. The trick is to judge with your ears rather than just on the age of the synth. :thumbright:

I like vintage analogue gear fine, it's generally overpriced though so I guess that could mean it's overrated. Putting every vintage analogue synth into one basket and saying they're all overrated or they're all great or they all suck is a silly thing to do though, some are classic and worth what they go for even if it may seem high ($2000 minimoogs for example) and some are overpriced ($500+ CS-01s).

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Re: Synth Deflation?

Post by volumetrik » Wed Feb 06, 2013 5:23 am

Stab Frenzy wrote: Roland are a business and their goal is to make a profit for their shareholders, not to make you or anyone else happy. The TB-303 lost them a lot of money, and the current high second-hand price doesn't turn them a profit at all. As far as Roland are concerned as a company the TB-303 was a massive disaster and one they don't want to repeat. They aren't trying to make instruments that will be revered in 15 years, they're trying to make instruments that people will buy right now. :thumbleft:
Ok fair enough, in my opinion I think in this day and age if they put out a TB-303 it wouldn't flop, they could do a small run to stay safe.

I think they are trying to make their instruments as future classics, look at this that I found that was pretty recent:
http://www.rolandus.com/blog/2013/01/17 ... nd-synths/

in a way you could say that they are trying bring attention to their Jupiter-80 synth through their old instruments because its not selling well, they are trying to say like "if you like SH-101 then get a Jupiter-80, if you like Jupiter-8 then get a Jupiter-80, if you like Juno-106 then get a Jupiter-80" and so on...

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Re: Synth Deflation?

Post by Stab Frenzy » Wed Feb 06, 2013 5:59 am

volumetrik wrote:
Stab Frenzy wrote: Roland are a business and their goal is to make a profit for their shareholders, not to make you or anyone else happy. The TB-303 lost them a lot of money, and the current high second-hand price doesn't turn them a profit at all. As far as Roland are concerned as a company the TB-303 was a massive disaster and one they don't want to repeat. They aren't trying to make instruments that will be revered in 15 years, they're trying to make instruments that people will buy right now. :thumbleft:
Ok fair enough, in my opinion I think in this day and age if they put out a TB-303 it wouldn't flop, they could do a small run to stay safe.
a) Roland aren't in the business of doing small runs. They're a big company, they want to do big runs of product so they can use the market penetration they have to maximum advantage. A proposal to do a small run at Roland would be shot down by the execs in seconds unless it was for a flagship synth that they could use as a hero product that doesn't make a profit but increases brand prestige and then they can spin off the tech in later products at higher volume and lower cost to make a profit. This is textbook corporate manufacturing.

b) What would you hope for from a Roland reissue that you can't already get from the Bass Bot or x0xb0x? The word Roland on the case? I don't know what else they would have to offer.

c) A giveaway that they're not going down this path is that they haven't sued Cyclonic for trade dress over the Bass Bot. If Roland were even thinking of putting a 303 reissue out at any point in the future they would be shutting Cyclonic down, or at least making them redesign the case. That's exactly what they did when Behringer first bought out the stomp boxes that were the same shape and colours as the Boss one. All it would take would be one letter from their lawyers.

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Re: Synth Deflation?

Post by sequentialsoftshock » Wed Feb 06, 2013 6:14 am

What's with all the weird topics ? If anything deflates, it would be the MS20 AND ONLY because the market *could* be flooded with people deciding the Mini is worth making the cash by selling the original. I know i'm considering it...
bonne chance

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Re: Synth Deflation?

Post by vicd » Wed Feb 06, 2013 2:00 pm

Always loved those "what %companyname% should be doing for us" talks :lol:

OK, now the business plan is:
  1. buy out 51% of Roland's stock (or whatever is needed to assume control)
  2. set up a dedicated department and production premises for small-run "boutique-antiques"
  3. start selling them at twice the usual MOOG's prices...
  4. PROFIT!??! :roll:

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