I Dream of Wires

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Automatic Gainsay
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Re: I Dream of Wires

Post by Automatic Gainsay » Tue Sep 03, 2013 12:23 am

Blue Monster 65 wrote:That's because you're not old enough to have been there and AG was. :lol:
I was invited! I had every right to be the-

Oh, that's not what you meant.
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Re: I Dream of Wires

Post by shaft9000 » Tue Sep 03, 2013 7:57 pm

the first hour and a half of the Hardcore Ed. is all historical documentary material, w/ bits from interviews w. Subotnick, Deutche and a few others

unless i missed it over 2 casual viewings, it seems they neglect to mention Bode, or Ray Scott. Apparently the Sackbutt was deemed more relevant to modular synthesis by the director than the systems developed by the aforementioned. if i'm wrong and someone caught it, feel free to correct my a*s.

Moog definitely looms the largest of any one figure - at one point it creates the rather inaccurate impression that Bob Moog get all the credit for things like the first oscillator you could play in tune, and first sequencer anyone could come up with since the RCA mkII. I've already (gently) let Mr Amm know in the 'post your review here' thread on muffs. maybe an edit/insert will happen for the feature-length, maybe not.
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Re: I Dream of Wires

Post by Black Tomorrow » Wed Sep 04, 2013 5:57 am

shaft9000 wrote:at one point it creates the rather inaccurate impression that Bob Moog get all the credit for things like the ... first sequencer anyone could come up with since the RCA mkII.
Not the impression I got. It seemed to me that the Moog sequencer was influenced by Buchla.
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Re: I Dream of Wires

Post by Automatic Gainsay » Thu Sep 05, 2013 1:29 am

The Moog Sequencer was influenced by Raymond Scott on some levels, as that was the first sequencer Bob ever saw. But beyond that, R. A. Moog Co. saw the attraction of Buchla's sequencer and went for it.

You know, I try to be sensitive to Canadians by accepting Hugh LeCaine... and I know that it's often the case that people (especially from Canada) put forward that the Moog filter is the RESULT of LeCaine... but it really wasn't.

Harald Bode was INFINITELY more important than LeCaine, as he very literally as the first to effectively market the concept of voltage control in the ways we came to know voltage control as a means to operate synthesizers. Like, literally... in 1961, an article was published where he was talking about how the voltage of oscillator waveforms could be used to modify other oscillators, etc. His 1960 device which employed voltage control was called a "synthesizer." It did not have oscillators... it was primarily a tool to modify tape output... but still. Apart from oscillator sources, this thing set the stage for voltage control. It is rumored that both Moog and Buchla were influenced by this article from Bode's work in 1961.

And, if I can really blather for a moment, Bode had been creating synthesizers since the 1930s. The Warbo Formant Organ was frickin' AMAZING... implementing polyphony in a novel way that NO ONE HAS EVER DUPLICATED.

Anyway. Bode's synthesizer defined modular synthesis. Both Moog and Buchla implemented the new and readily available technology of transistors to more effectively utilize the concept... and that was their genius. And, despite what all the stuff that Subotnick has had his hands in... the Moog modules were done before Buchla's stuff was done, and Moog had a filter way before Buchla.

About that filter: Moog and Deutsch talked about using filters, but didn't initially create one. Gustav Ciamaga commissioned a filter from Moog when Moog was in Canada. Since Ciamaga had ties to LeCaine, everyone wants to suggest that the Moog filter was the result of him... but it's just not the case. Ciamaga may have wanted a filter because of LeCaine, but basically, he just commissioned Moog to make one for him, and Moog did. Moog's design was his own, based on his understanding of designs he had seen.

But the modern transistorized voltage controlled sequencer? That's Buchla's.
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Re: I Dream of Wires

Post by analoglsd » Mon Sep 09, 2013 10:40 am

shaft9000 wrote: unless i missed it over 2 casual viewings, it seems they neglect to mention Bode, or Ray Scott. Apparently the Sackbutt was deemed more relevant to modular synthesis by the director than the systems developed by the aforementioned. if i'm wrong and someone caught it, feel free to correct my a*s.
Yeah, I was surprised that there was no mention of Raymond Scott, being that he was such an innovator, and from what I've read, a considerable influence on Bob Moog.
Not to mention, he actually made amazing music with his inventions, which seems to make him unique in that respect.

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Re: I Dream of Wires

Post by pflosi » Mon Sep 09, 2013 10:54 am

FYI, the IDOW: Hardcore Edition will be repressed, for those that didn't manage to get a copy :thumbright:

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Re: I Dream of Wires

Post by Automatic Gainsay » Tue Sep 10, 2013 1:07 am

analoglsd wrote:
shaft9000 wrote: unless i missed it over 2 casual viewings, it seems they neglect to mention Bode, or Ray Scott. Apparently the Sackbutt was deemed more relevant to modular synthesis by the director than the systems developed by the aforementioned. if i'm wrong and someone caught it, feel free to correct my a*s.
Yeah, I was surprised that there was no mention of Raymond Scott, being that he was such an innovator, and from what I've read, a considerable influence on Bob Moog.
Not to mention, he actually made amazing music with his inventions, which seems to make him unique in that respect.
It is often stated that Scott was an influence on Moog. And, he was. Scott invited Moog over early in Moog's career.
He then took Bob's theremin design and integrated it with his Clavivox. And that is cool.

What is apparently not known is that Scott, from that point on, consistently commissioned designs from Bob any time he needed something he couldn't do. Bob was to keep these things secret, as Scott was VERY protective of his ideas. But Scott literally depended on Moog's ingenuity for Scott's designs.

This can be proven soon. You'll be able to go to Cornell and review Bob's notebooks and see this for yourself.
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Re: I Dream of Wires

Post by synthparts » Tue Sep 10, 2013 1:56 am

Automatic Gainsay wrote:This can be proven soon. You'll be able to go to Cornell and review Bob's notebooks and see this for yourself.
Don't you work for the Bob Moog Foundation which is fighting Bob's widow's efforts to have the archives donated to Cornell? Or have they given up on that?
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Re: I Dream of Wires

Post by Automatic Gainsay » Tue Sep 10, 2013 2:33 am

synthparts wrote:
Automatic Gainsay wrote:This can be proven soon. You'll be able to go to Cornell and review Bob's notebooks and see this for yourself.
Don't you work for the Bob Moog Foundation which is fighting Bob's widow's efforts to have the archives donated to Cornell? Or have they given up on that?
You say that like you don't know that this is actually Bob's second wife, and that they were only married for a comparatively short time.
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Re: I Dream of Wires

Post by synthparts » Tue Sep 10, 2013 3:12 am

Automatic Gainsay wrote:
synthparts wrote:
Automatic Gainsay wrote:This can be proven soon. You'll be able to go to Cornell and review Bob's notebooks and see this for yourself.
Don't you work for the Bob Moog Foundation which is fighting Bob's widow's efforts to have the archives donated to Cornell? Or have they given up on that?
You say that like you don't know that this is actually Bob's second wife, and that they were only married for a comparatively short time.
It's what Bob wanted. But no it's much better for the BMF to continue to do nothing with them...
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Re: I Dream of Wires

Post by silikon » Tue Sep 10, 2013 3:28 am

Jesus f**k Christ. Did the magnetic poles shift overnight?

First the slap-fight over on MW about re-releasing the IDOW:HE DVD, and now we have to revisit this drama?

How about we let BMF and Dr. Moog's estate deal with this stuff and we all collectively hope for the best possible outcome, whatever your own personal bent or thought on the subject?

Next thing to come, is that the "lets petition Roland" thread will fire up again and people will remark about how the new 303 maxi should come with an 8 pole bandpass filter and a supersaw oscillator; and there will be a lynching.
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Re: I Dream of Wires

Post by Automatic Gainsay » Tue Sep 10, 2013 3:29 am

synthparts wrote:It's what Bob wanted. But no it's much better for the BMF to continue to do nothing with them...
Did you just say "it's what Bob wanted?" As if you know what it says in Bob's will? Perhaps you should find out what it says in Bob's will before you say that. Or, you can just be a douchebag on the internet who forms an opinion based upon your unsubstantiated emotion.

And also: Are you under the impression that the BMF did nothing with them? Uhhh... maybe you should look into that. Or, you could, again... just say whatever unsubstantiated bullshit you want.
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Re: I Dream of Wires

Post by JayEm » Tue Sep 10, 2013 3:29 am

Aw, man.
You smell that? It's gonna be a forum war.



Ps - it sounds like the bmf was only sitting on the archives as they were waiting for resolution from his widow.
w00t

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Re: I Dream of Wires

Post by Automatic Gainsay » Tue Sep 10, 2013 3:32 am

JayEm wrote:Aw, man.
You smell that? It's gonna be a forum war.



Ps - it sounds like the bmf was only sitting on the archives as they were waiting for resolution from his widow.
There's no war.
Just the people who know, and the people who want to weigh in.

And this isn't the thread.
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Re: I Dream of Wires

Post by synthparts » Tue Sep 10, 2013 9:14 am

AG, you're the one who brought up the archives going to Cornell and being availale to the public in this thread. I just found it completely ridiculous since you're part of the organization fighting hard to prevent that from happening. No need for name-calling or personal attacks.

I donoted money to the BMF in part so the archives would be preserved, digitized and made available and in several years of having them it hasn't been done...
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