Tangerine Dream, Late 1981.

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madtheory
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Re: Tangerine Dream, Late 1981.

Post by madtheory » Sun Sep 29, 2013 12:23 am

I would've agree with you antilles before I'd heard the live "bootlegs" from Tangerine Tree. All of those guys can really play, and they're very inventive regardless of technology. It's clear from listening to all those live shows that they did actually play (so I'm very happy to have answered my earlier question about tapes). This makes the Logos album all the more impressive. They released that one because it was their best performance at the time. It's so good it sounds pre recorded, but it obviously isn't if you hear their shows from 81 and 82.

And it's not like NO-ONE else could afford that gear. So why was no one else doing it? I think I've already answered that...

Although I do agree that the post Franke stuff is not great IMO- it's still been very influential. And are you familiar with what Franke was doing after he left? It's very similar in style to post Franke TD!

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Re: Tangerine Dream, Late 1981.

Post by mis psiquicios y yo » Sun Sep 29, 2013 4:15 am

I thought TD were very bad after Franke leave, but after listening to some post 88 albums I now think Froese is very lazy and inconstant, nevertheless he still has sudden inspiration in some years, give a listen to this albums:

The Island of the Fay, 2011 (This truly is a great album)
The Angel From the West Window, 2011
Winter in Hiroshima, 2009
Kyoto, 2005
Oasis, 1997
Optical Race, 1988

Nothing like the 70's early 80's output, but . . .
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Re: Tangerine Dream, Late 1981.

Post by forcedopinion » Sun Sep 29, 2013 8:52 am

I really like the Miracle Mile score and that's like '87/'88. I'm mostly in agreement with ya'll. After that, VERY spotty stuff.

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Re: Tangerine Dream, Late 1981.

Post by forcedopinion » Sun Sep 29, 2013 8:52 am

I really like the Miracle Mile score and that's like '87/'88. I'm mostly in agreement with ya'll. After that, VERY spotty stuff.

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Re: Tangerine Dream, Late 1981.

Post by salwa » Sun Sep 29, 2013 9:16 am

antilles wrote:Tangerine Dream got boring by the time Franke left, and they started using mostly digital synths.
I'd say, that bad times started earlier - the band, that recorded Le Parc is exactly the same people, who recorded Exit or Poland. Franke took part in such awful albums like Tyger or Underwater Sunlight. And it's true - his solo albums (Klemania comes to mind) are as awful as 90s TD.
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Re: Tangerine Dream, Late 1981.

Post by shaft9000 » Sun Sep 29, 2013 7:12 pm

eh, some later records like TransSiberia and Mars Polaris...oasis...is very good stuff.
but yeah - better to call them Froese records than TD proper. His backing 'band' the last 20 years has been a rather laughable excuse to call TD.
antilles wrote: I hate to say it, but many of those electronic music pioneers, like TD were pioneers not because of their musical talents, but by the fact that they had access to expensive synthesizer equipment, that few others could afford. Perhaps TD were more like musical engineers than musical artists really.
quite the contrary.

i'd have to say - much as i DO like some of his work - it was really Klaus Schulze that tried to do what you're describing - and came off bland and monotonous.

TD created/appropriated a mix of classical antiquity and bleeding-edge tech - nobody but Tomita could claim as fantastic a sound on record at the time...nobody. In those days putting on a TD record was beyond anything else in music going on - they fashioned a complete vocabulary, a sonic universe apart from anyone else. Just check Zeit or go later to say, Hyperborea for the proof.

Sure, the basis of a lot of what they're known for was developed by Steve Reich and others earlier, but i've never been one to confuse Reich with Chris Franke ...ever. The musical personality shines through the tech, so "not artists" is a ludicrous suggestion, when personality of the creator is evident and easily distinguishable.

They stood alone, and there has never or will be anything quite like it again, despite Redshift and Node's efforts(bless 'em). That they were so bloody prolific, constantly evolving and saw it ALL through...this speaks even further to their artistic validity beyond the technical matters mentioned.
Every artist that pushes/evolves the form will have to make efforts at redesigning the tools/instruments of their craft to suit unforseen purposes. That TD took it to such an unprecedented degree with electronic music...well, how would you know if it's their imagination or ego at work, or both? What difference does that make, anyways? They're not 'cool enough to be legit/punk' or some other meaningless, speculative Pop-culture lensing? They're clearly not on the standard-issue measure. And they were certainly no ELP wankoffs, despite the meandering nature of some of their compositions.

NOTHING else compares to the string of records they put out from 71-84.
Jack s**t comes remotely close, actually. Their best music reaches a part of my evolutionary genetic memory - primal non-identity - that other composers never even begin to reach. If you don't hear it, well then that's cool, too.

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Re: Tangerine Dream, Late 1981.

Post by tim gueguen » Sun Sep 29, 2013 11:03 pm

Chemistry between band members always has an effect on what they produce. Presumably towards the end Froese and Franke stopped working well together. Perhaps they stopped listening to each other's input. Then again they both may have come to a mutual decision, to cater to the growing New Age market by toning down the edges in their music, because that's where the money was. After all it's not as if |Franke left and put out a 1990s equivalent of Force Majeure.
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Re: Tangerine Dream, Late 1981.

Post by Z » Sun Sep 29, 2013 11:32 pm

I guess I'm the exception to what everyone's favorite TD period is. I like pretty much all of TD's 80s stuff. I find the 70s era boring and repetitive. The 80s stuff has more structure. I pretty much lost interest after Optical Race. I bought a few of the subsequent albums, but grew tired quickly.

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Re: Tangerine Dream, Late 1981.

Post by knolan » Mon Sep 30, 2013 2:07 am

Love all of TD's music, right up to today. Favourites include Rubycon, Encore (Monolight is such a gem!), Exit, Force Majeure, White Eagle (Mojave Plan is stunning and utterly contemporary), Logos (Agree with Mad Theory - absolutely amazing music), Hyperboria (best use of the VP330 'Human' sound other than by Vangelis), Underwater Sunlight, Tyger (Paul Haslinger is an excellent player), Live Miles and more recently their Mars Polaris, Tournado ( absolutely fantastic live album), their various Dream Mixes.



Check out "Loom" - a new group comprising Johannes Schmoelling and Edgar Froese's son Jerome Froese. Very good electronic music (Jerome Froese is very talented)

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Re: Tangerine Dream, Late 1981.

Post by ppg_wavecomputer » Mon Sep 30, 2013 10:19 am

antilles wrote:Tangerine Dream got boring by the time Franke left, and they started using mostly digital synths. [...]
I beg to differ. TD got boring when Johannes Schmoelling left. Chris Franke bravely endured it for three more years before he quit in 87 or ´88.

Franke´s solo albums didn´t cut it. I found myself wondering more often than once whether this really was *the* Chris Franke whose sequencer work I had so admired...

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Re: Tangerine Dream, Late 1981.

Post by Mooger5 » Mon Sep 30, 2013 2:05 pm

Great link. Thanks for posting.
tim gueguen wrote:Chemistry between band members always has an effect on what they produce. Presumably towards the end Froese and Franke stopped working well together. Perhaps they stopped listening to each other's input. Then again they both may have come to a mutual decision, to cater to the growing New Age market by toning down the edges in their music, because that's where the money was. After all it's not as if |Franke left and put out a 1990s equivalent of Force Majeure.
I´ve read that what mostly contributed to Franke´s departure was Miami Vice turning into a worldwide success while Streethawk flopped.

Froese said to Future Music the band was never happy to be identified with the New Age market ( I presume because of the cheesy side of it). And they weren´t happy with the 90s Ambient scene as well, a style they helped to create longer ago and never seen any credit for. In fact some british band (FSOL, probably) would be hearing from his lawyers for sampling TD stuff.
So, since TD started as a rock band Froese admitted the band should move in that direction, distancing themselves from those genres.

Now I have my reserves about TD sounding like a rock band, but the type of workflow of the Atari ST and Steinberg Pro24 puts and end to improvising surreal music landscapes and emphasis on sonic experimentation, for sure.
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Re: Tangerine Dream, Late 1981.

Post by Mooger5 » Mon Sep 30, 2013 3:04 pm

BTW, regarding the Tang´s more "mature" sound, what about Pink Floyd being most influential here?

They were doing two-note basslines followed by pads and leads since at least ´68:
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Re: Tangerine Dream, Late 1981.

Post by intercorni » Mon Sep 30, 2013 8:24 pm

knolan wrote:Hyperboria (best use of the VP330 'Human' sound other than by Vangelis)
Sure? At which point exactly?
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Re: Tangerine Dream, Late 1981.

Post by ppg_wavecomputer » Mon Sep 30, 2013 11:54 pm

tim gueguen wrote:Chemistry between band members always has an effect on what they produce. Presumably towards the end Froese and Franke stopped working well together. Perhaps they stopped listening to each other's input. [...]
Of course, chemistry within a band is very important. s**t in equals s**t out, easy as that.

As a matter of fact, it is widely known that Froese and his bandmates never were close on a personal level. He reportedly met Chris Franke in the studio only but never visited him at home in all the years they worked together. I seem to remember that Franke set up the studio space primarily because he needed a place to rehearse and work out ideas, and this studio is where they subsequently met with each member presenting their own preparations to the others.

I am neither a TD expert, nor a TD fanboy but I´ve followed their work quite closely for the past 35 years. To me it sounds like the forced film scoring of the early and mid-1980s put a strain on the band. If you take "White Eagle" as an example, the album sounds like some half-arsed ideas thrown together but not properly worked out due to time pressures from film industry. These badly produced studio albums and the fast pace at which film scores were created seem like the death knell to TD to me, and I am convinced that this tight schedule not only broke the band apart but also spoilt the quality of their output. Schmoelling, at some point, mentioned in an interview that the work schedule was too much to handle.

Why did Froese decide to force things the way he did? For two reasons IMO. First of all, he had to earn money out of pragmatism -- Little Jerome needed a new pair of shoes, and Monika needed a new coat for the winter. Later, he had to sustain an enormous apparatus of custom-built and expensive electronic gear, plus a staff of employees to keep the business running while Froese was away. All these obligations became the proverbial millstone around his neck, as we would say in German. Once you´re in it, it´s hard to get out of it, you´re trapped. Froese once said that TD will be as commercial as they have to be in order to raise funds for experimentation, nothing more than that... well, make of this what you wish.

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Re: Tangerine Dream, Late 1981.

Post by knolan » Tue Oct 01, 2013 9:36 am

intercorni wrote:
knolan wrote:Hyperboria (best use of the VP330 'Human' sound other than by Vangelis)
Sure? At which point exactly?
Choral sound in the earlier parts of the Hyperborea piece itself (I read an article on that).

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