Moog Sub 37

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meatballfulton
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Re: Moog Sub 37

Post by meatballfulton » Thu Feb 13, 2014 4:06 am

Just to add to the mess, the Vermona Perfourmer has a "duophonic" mode but it does not work anything like the Odyssey. It's actually true 2 voice polyphony, each note is independently articulated.

I agree with Marc, sloppy use of language merely increases confusion.
I listened to Hatfield and the North at Rainbow. They were very wonderful and they made my heart a prisoner.

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Re: Moog Sub 37

Post by calaverasgrande » Thu Feb 13, 2014 5:31 am

I think the use/misuse of 'paraphonic' evolved in a pretty staigthforward fashion.
Just look at the use of 'para' elsewhere. Such as 'paralegal', 'paramilitary' and 'paramedic'.
Putting aside the actual latin roots the common meaning of the words implies a 'less than not equal to' status for these adjectives. A paralegal is not a lawyer, a paramedic is not a doctor, paramilitary can usually be taken to mean in a military style, but not the actual military. Though that use has blurred as well.
Folowing that logic, if polyphony is being able to play multiple articulated notes, than paraphony would be 'like' polyphony but not as good as.
Of course that analogy falls apart with the words parametric (an eq where all the controls are exposed) paranormal, parabolic etc.
Truth is English is a sloppy, ugly, pidgin of French and German with neither of it's parent languages finer points.
It is a miracle we can communicate at all.
I'm just eager to check out the Sub37 and evaluate whether it's button festooned facia hides a synth I need to own, or if I should just snatch one of its discontinued siblings that are still in channel.
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Re: Moog Sub 37

Post by Stab Frenzy » Thu Feb 13, 2014 8:58 am

Parametric in terms of EQ means having access to all parameters, it has the letters para in it but they're part of a different root word rather than being a prefix.

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Re: Moog Sub 37

Post by commodorejohn » Thu Feb 13, 2014 9:24 am

Suffice to say: language is complicated.
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Re: Moog Sub 37

Post by nathanscribe » Thu Feb 13, 2014 10:45 am

Ha!

Language works by consensus. VSE is not the best place to arrive at this.

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Re: Moog Sub 37

Post by zoomtheline » Thu Feb 13, 2014 10:55 am

Jeez, did anyone watch that vid I posted or did my bump just fuel more parabollocks ;)

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Re: Moog Sub 37

Post by meatballfulton » Thu Feb 13, 2014 2:14 pm

commodorejohn wrote:Suffice to say: language is complicated.
C'est vrai!
I listened to Hatfield and the North at Rainbow. They were very wonderful and they made my heart a prisoner.

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Re: Moog Sub 37

Post by calaverasgrande » Thu Feb 13, 2014 3:45 pm

Stab Frenzy wrote:Parametric in terms of EQ means having access to all parameters, it has the letters para in it but they're part of a different root word rather than being a prefix.
that is pretty much my point.
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Re: Moog Sub 37

Post by Augment » Thu Feb 13, 2014 6:10 pm

meatballfulton wrote:Hey Marc, I got a Moogy question that's related to Sub37.

I heard recently that Minitaur, Sub Phatty and Taurus II have digital LFOs and EGs, not analog like Slim Phatty and Voyager. I was kind of surprised...know if it is true?
I'll try and answer this, although I'm not an expert by any means.
The LFO on every model of "Phatty" is digital. Anything that can sync to MIDI clock is going to be at least partially digital. This is also how they were able to add in an arpeggiator to the Phatty series via a firmware upgrade, among other things.

The envelopes I'm not 100% certain about; although with the MIDI sync and looping features of the Sub37, I suppose there's obviously some digital elements at work.

Keep in mind, none of this is inherently a bad thing; I actually really love the LFO on my LP Stage. It's much, much more aggressive than the Voyager's LFO and can really drive the sound at its higher settings. What defines an "analog" synth is it's basic sound engine / signal path: Analog oscillators, filters, and VCA. The rest just modifies said signal path and can be comprised of any combination of analog/digital, while still being considered (and importantly, marketed) as a "100% Analog Synthesizer."

Hope this helps; I figured I'd chime in since your question may have gotten lost in the great paraphonic debate of '14. :lol:

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Re: Moog Sub 37

Post by Aaron2 » Thu Feb 13, 2014 7:17 pm

Augment wrote:The LFO on every model of "Phatty" is digital. Anything that can sync to MIDI clock is going to be at least partially digital. This is also how they were able to add in an arpeggiator to the Phatty series via a firmware upgrade, among other things.
So does the Sub Phatty now have an arpeggiator? If so, that's a good thing. I thought the lack of an arpeggiator on the Sub was a puzzling omission from an otherwise very feature-rich synth.

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Re: Moog Sub 37

Post by knolan » Thu Feb 13, 2014 7:21 pm

Augment - I'd like (respectfully) to disagree with your appraisal of what's important in an analogue signal path!

(Would we have it any differently ??)


To me, the modifier sections, including LFO, RM, ADSR Envelopes and so on are intrinsic to the character of analogue synthesizers. All of my vintage synthesizers respond differently in these regards - and what gives them their individual character (for each make of synth) and indeed even individual character for different individual instruments in a given model / type. That's as much because their LFO, Envelopes and other modifiers are analogue.

For example, I 'know' the envelope generator on both my J106 and MonoPoly intimately - as in - I can perform very precisely in real time with them and affect the character of the sound that way, and much of that is because of their incredibly smooth analogue nature. And - my two Juno 106's are very different in the Envelope department , offering different options to me. I'm not saying you can't do that with digital envelopes (for example), but the analogue path is very organic and genuinely a part of the character of each individual instrument. Likewise, I suspect if would be exceedingly difficult to recreate the CS80 ring modulator digitally, it is its intrinsic analogue features that give it its character.

Finally, an unusual quirk somewhere in the signal path of my Jupiter 6 means that if I set its arpeggiator to just a simple repeating 4 note arpeggio, each 4 notes do not sound exactly the same - every 4-5 cycles something resets - but it doesn't reset the arpeggio or its rhythm - and it definitely adds some pseudo random character (change) that just does not (and could not) happen on my AN1x arpeggiator, for example.

I adore all my digital synths too by the way - I'm not arguing that analogue is better - but it is true that a completely analogue path introduces a whole range of character, 'seasoning' and individualism to each and every analogue synth that isn't as frequently occurring on digital synths.

Kevin.

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Re: Moog Sub 37

Post by pflosi » Thu Feb 13, 2014 7:31 pm

Augment, it's totally possible to sync LFOs and EGs (and loop the latter) using only analog :thumbright:

No idea what it is in the Phatty though...

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Re: Moog Sub 37

Post by ninja6485 » Thu Feb 13, 2014 8:11 pm

calaverasgrande wrote:I think the use/misuse of 'paraphonic' evolved in a pretty staigthforward fashion.
Just look at the use of 'para' elsewhere. Such as 'paralegal', 'paramilitary' and 'paramedic'.
Putting aside the actual latin roots the common meaning of the words implies a 'less than not equal to' status for these adjectives. A paralegal is not a lawyer, a paramedic is not a doctor, paramilitary can usually be taken to mean in a military style, but not the actual military. Though that use has blurred as well.
Folowing that logic, if polyphony is being able to play multiple articulated notes, than paraphony would be 'like' polyphony but not as good as.
Of course that analogy falls apart with the words parametric (an eq where all the controls are exposed) paranormal, parabolic etc.
Truth is English is a sloppy, ugly, pidgin of French and German with neither of it's parent languages finer points.
It is a miracle we can communicate at all.
I'm just eager to check out the Sub37 and evaluate whether it's button festooned facia hides a synth I need to own, or if I should just snatch one of its discontinued siblings that are still in channel.
The prefix para means against, or beside. Against has the same double usage as para, viz.. set the plant against the wall vs. the paramilitary is operating against the French military. The double meanining seems to have originated within the French language, so in this case French is just as "sloppy"as english. As such, a paramedic works beside a doctor, paralegals work beside lawyers, paramilitary fighters fight against a military, and the paranormal is something that is not normal; as in set against the normal. parabolic is the adjective form of the word parabala refering to a curve, and the same has already been pointed out about parametric. Your analogy fell apart because you didn't know the meaning of the prefix para, which is also why it appeared to you the its use had been blurred in the examples given.
This looks like a psychotropic reaction. No wonder it's so popular...

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Re: Moog Sub 37

Post by calaverasgrande » Thu Feb 13, 2014 8:23 pm

ninja6485 wrote:
calaverasgrande wrote:I think the use/misuse of 'paraphonic' evolved in a pretty staigthforward fashion.
Just look at the use of 'para' elsewhere. Such as 'paralegal', 'paramilitary' and 'paramedic'.
Putting aside the actual latin roots the common meaning of the words implies a 'less than not equal to' status for these adjectives. A paralegal is not a lawyer, a paramedic is not a doctor, paramilitary can usually be taken to mean in a military style, but not the actual military. Though that use has blurred as well.
Folowing that logic, if polyphony is being able to play multiple articulated notes, than paraphony would be 'like' polyphony but not as good as.
Of course that analogy falls apart with the words parametric (an eq where all the controls are exposed) paranormal, parabolic etc.
Truth is English is a sloppy, ugly, pidgin of French and German with neither of it's parent languages finer points.
It is a miracle we can communicate at all.
I'm just eager to check out the Sub37 and evaluate whether it's button festooned facia hides a synth I need to own, or if I should just snatch one of its discontinued siblings that are still in channel.
The prefix para means against, or beside. Against has the same double usage as para, viz.. set the plant against the wall vs. the paramilitary is operating against the French military. The double meanining seems to have originated within the French language, so in this case French is just as "sloppy"as english. As such, a paramedic works beside a doctor, paralegals work beside lawyers, paramilitary fighters fight against a military, and the paranormal is something that is not normal; as in set against the normal. parabolic is the adjective form of the word parabala refering to a curve, and the same has already been pointed out about parametric. Your analogy fell apart because you didn't know the meaning of the prefix para, which is also why it appeared to you the its use had been blurred in the examples given.
don't project.
I said "Putting aside the actual latin roots"
because I was speaking on the use of the words, not from whence they derived.
Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with all thy might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave

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Re: Moog Sub 37

Post by ninja6485 » Thu Feb 13, 2014 10:16 pm

Para is currently used exactly the way I described its use in my post... :?

I think you're confusing para with pseudo, or at the very least conflating the two. In other words, you have a pseudo-understanding of para, not a para-understanding. Also para is Greek, not latin.
This looks like a psychotropic reaction. No wonder it's so popular...

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