Korg to release ARP Odyssey

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Re: Korg to release ARP Odyssey

Post by Dr. Phibes » Tue Feb 25, 2014 6:29 pm

Kronik wrote: At the risk of being a BOF, how there heck do you think us synth/keyboard players got on in the 70's? :D
I dunno, sort of a cross between Pink Flamingos and Blake's 7 I imagine.

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Re: Korg to release ARP Odyssey

Post by CZ Rider » Tue Feb 25, 2014 7:07 pm

Perhaps since Korg is making a faithfull reproduction Odyssey, they will include the "Instant Odyssey" patch overlays. There were about 20 or so overlays with patches and a few blanks to make your own.

I could fill a page with past experiences of changing patches on a Minimoog in live settings during the 70's. The Minimoog was fast at that, and many morph patches from a bass sound to a searing lead were possible. I would make those patch changes part of the show. Always looked like the mad scientist turning all those dials. But the truth is, I was working my a*s off to go from the bass to lead patch. Then there was always the lead singer banter with the audience between songs. Drawnig attention away from the fact that I was madly setting up the next patch. The good old days? :lol:
It was certainly an art to get it all right.

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Re: Korg to release ARP Odyssey

Post by ninja6485 » Tue Feb 25, 2014 9:00 pm

Kronik wrote:Live dangerously! Take an Oddy/Pro-One/Minimoog etc. out with you on your next gig and enjoy the feeling of panic when you realise you haven't patched up the killer into to your next song… It all adds adrenaline to the performance!
:lol: Know the fruit of sublime terror as you turn your oddy/pro-one/minimoog on at the venue and it's completely out of tune, and won't stabilize until it warms up for like 10-15 min; as you wait with baited breath, hoping that everything you need still works the way it did when you last turned it on!
This looks like a psychotropic reaction. No wonder it's so popular...

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Re: Korg to release ARP Odyssey

Post by Automatic Gainsay » Tue Feb 25, 2014 9:01 pm

ninja6485 wrote:It DOES help to have patch storage if you're playing in a live context since you can set song 1,2,3,4,etc to patch number 1,2,3,4,etc. Even something as simple as a juno-60 gets tedious if you're changing patches on like 6-8 synths, especially if - like me - you want to switch half of your gear to song 2 while song one is finishing up. It Would definitly be cool on the little odyssey if you're looking to keep the vintage in the studio and take the modern on the road.
See, this is the thing. Convenience is sometimes the enemy of creativity, and it is almost always the enemy of learning.

I'm not just spouting c**p. I have played live exclusively with analog synths since 2001 (and before that, but a long time before that). And I'm not talking about an SH-101 or a Juno (although in regard to the long time before that, I am talking about a Juno). I play live with a Minimoog and an ARP 2600. Is it easy? No. Is it fun? Yes. Is it stressful between songs? Sometimes. But it causes you to really understand your synthesizer. You get to a point where you don't need patch sheets because you have learned how each section interrelates, and how things are going to sound when you change settings. You really really do. It's not magic. It just takes some time, sweat, and effort... things that people seem to want to avoid, these days.

Playing good music is hard, people.

griffin avid wrote:With many analog synths, patch storage is the refuge of the people who don't know how they did what they did and need to save it so that they can do it again.

Hogwash and pure rubbish. And be glad there's no dislike button.
I wish there WAS a dislike button. :)

And no, Griffin... you're wrong. You're misinterpreting an ambiguity in my statement. I am not saying that patch storage is ONLY the refuge, I'm saying that it is OFTEN the refuge. I'm saying that it is the refuge for the people I describe, not that it's true overall. And how do you know that's what I mean? You, among many, should know that I wouldn't make a statement like the one you're suggesting. And the fact that you go on to tell me about how people need patch storage for a variety of other synths... do you remember who I am? That was a ridiculous and outrageous and perhaps intentional jump to a misinterpretation.

griffin avid wrote:Patch storage is for:
1) People who buy and use synths as musical instruments and have no interest in sound design. Meaning, I am going to perform with it as the primary function AND MAKING COOL SOUNDS is secondary, if at all.
I use synths as musical instruments. The damned things were invented to allow you to author sound. You've jumped from patch storage straight to playing only with presets.
griffin avid wrote:2) People with synths that lack KNOB PER FUNCTION - meaning it's TEDIOUS to navigate menus and recreate every sound, every time. Even if you expertly know what to do- doesn't mean that's the fun part.
I think this goes without saying.
griffin avid wrote:3) People who are actually good at making sounds. so yeah, you might want to share them, or h**l, even sell them.
Perhaps I'm going to jump to a conclusion here, but all the people I know who are "good at making sounds" and sell them are also expert synthesists who know exactly how everything functions... and are likely to be able to recreate their sounds from knowing how their synthesizer works instead of relying on patch storage.

griffin avid wrote:4) People with multiple synths. I own a voyager. I haven't used it in quite some time. If someone took all the labels off the front panel, I wouldn't know what knob was for what. I use my Speccie every day. I can glance at the front and know how many pushes and twists get me to where I'm going. I have gear that I've known so well, I memorized all the menu presses. 3 down, 4 left, 2 up....
The Voyager is a complex synthesizer. Also, it is a parametric synthesizer. If you don't use the parametric section, you're missing out on a lot of its functionality. It is also DESIGNED for patch storage. But if you use it every day, I'll bet you'll start to remember how each section works, and the architecture of the sounds you make.
But it's true... if you have a thousand synths, odds are, you're never going to have the level of relationship necessary with a synth to understand its every function and resultant sound. But that's not a justification for patch storage, that's a justification for you to stop spending your money and FOCUS.
griffin avid wrote:5) People who like to make sounds. Sometimes I only make new sounds and I save them for future usage.
We all do. It is fun and easy to store sounds. No one denies that. I don't deny it. I'm not saying it's not fun and easy and convenient to store sounds. I'm saying that patch storage encourages people who don't understand synthesis to avoid learning synthesis. If you mess around with a synth, randomly turning knobs until something pleases you, and then store it... yeah, you're having a great time, but you're wasting your analog synth. You might as well scroll through presets. If you LEARN what your synth DOES, you not only won't be dependent on patch storage, you'll really be able to express yourself and create unique and personal sounds. That's what I'm saying. I'm NOT saying there is no point to patch storage.
griffin avid wrote:6) People who use a synth for more than 1 sound per song. You can work on different parts of a song and jump back and forth between sounds. It's a drag if you have to reprogram every sound from scratch to try a new idea. Bass and then lead and then a layer from the tail and then bass again for a bridge, but back to a counter melody...and the fx from the opening for the ending again....tedious way to work....probably skipped if the only thing you need is a singular lead sound from that synth.
This is undeniably true. This is why so many patchless analog synth players in the 70s had so many synths.
While I have moved back and forth between settings in a live situation, it really does suck.
I guess the one benefit of it is that it encourages you to choose your sounds wisely and implement them judiciously.
griffin avid wrote:7) Live context. I know there are live performers...that... noodling around with the synth on stage is a part of the show as they dial in to the right tone. Similar to 1 above, it's about my performance on stage and recreating patches is not part of the charm.
It's not easy, but it really makes you work, and really adds to your skill.
griffin avid wrote:I also find it stifling to limit my creativity based on the familiar renderings of my own imagination. Experimentation is what leads to different avenues and corridors and by wandering in to the unknown we sometimes reach the new and never-existed-before.

If everything you do, has a predictable end, you are not an artist, you're an engineer.
Are you really advocating not knowing your craft so that you can be creative in it? Yes, there is an inverse proportion between creativity and knowledge... the more you know, the more it can limit your creativity... but the LESS you know, the more likely you are to do something that you think sounds cool that countless others have done.
If anything, not having patch memory INCREASES your creativity because you are forced to explore and be creative every time. No matter how much you know, if your synth is powerful enough, there is always something new to discover. Simply because I can patch an ARP 2600 on the fly, and reasonably predict the outcome... it doesn't mean that I know every single thing the thing does!

I'm sorry, Griffin... but a lot of these sound like excuses to me.
griffin avid wrote:Where's stab frenzy when you need him?
Do you need him?
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Re: Korg to release ARP Odyssey

Post by Automatic Gainsay » Tue Feb 25, 2014 9:05 pm

Hey, come on. It's been a long time since I posted a novel here. Give me a break. :)

In general, though... come on. Every time an analog synth comes out, everyone whines and cries about how it needs tuning or needs patch storage or needs presets or needs extensive MIDI implementation.

If you need all that s**t:

1. This sort of synth isn't made for you.

2. You should buy one of these synths and stop relying on convenience. LEARN
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Re: Korg to release ARP Odyssey

Post by sam » Tue Feb 25, 2014 9:40 pm

I always encourage users to take their analogs on stage, It's not easy but pressure brings out something special and finding that moment of inspiration that wouldn't happen in a studio as such.

I am lucky to own some nice synths but the one's i take on stage i really understand and can program in the dark which has been the case on a few occasions.

Maybe it's my age but i much more enjoy the challenge of no presets.
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Re: Korg to release ARP Odyssey

Post by sam » Tue Feb 25, 2014 9:45 pm

BTW on topic....I am a big user of ARP synths ...Can't wait to hear the new one.

Out of all the 3 odys i prefer the white face....Dope.
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Re: Korg to release ARP Odyssey

Post by zoomtheline » Tue Feb 25, 2014 9:52 pm

Obviously there are truths in both arguments but, I lean towards AG's way of thinking. I have pretty much sold all my complex synths as I tend to get bored with the vast amount they do. The only one I kept really is the Blofeld as it's just bonkers but it's really enjoyable to delve into. Strangely my old radias which is loads knobbier didn't excite me. I just wish the Blofeld had one bank of presets. That's plenty. The majority of my synths have no patch storage and I can dial my sounds fairly quickly when needed. It's these synths that get my juices going and they are used in nearly every track in some way. For me, knowing I created every part of what I have recorded makes me happy but I know that that is not particularly what's important to others.

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Re: Korg to release ARP Odyssey

Post by ninja6485 » Tue Feb 25, 2014 9:58 pm

Automatic Gainsay wrote:
ninja6485 wrote:It DOES help to have patch storage if you're playing in a live context since you can set song 1,2,3,4,etc to patch number 1,2,3,4,etc. Even something as simple as a juno-60 gets tedious if you're changing patches on like 6-8 synths, especially if - like me - you want to switch half of your gear to song 2 while song one is finishing up. It Would definitly be cool on the little odyssey if you're looking to keep the vintage in the studio and take the modern on the road.
See, this is the thing. Convenience is sometimes the enemy of creativity, and it is almost always the enemy of learning.

I'm not just spouting c**p. I have played live exclusively with analog synths since 2001 (and before that, but a long time before that). And I'm not talking about an SH-101 or a Juno (although in regard to the long time before that, I am talking about a Juno). I play live with a Minimoog and an ARP 2600. Is it easy? No. Is it fun? Yes. Is it stressful between songs? Sometimes. But it causes you to really understand your synthesizer. You get to a point where you don't need patch sheets because you have learned how each section interrelates, and how things are going to sound when you change settings. You really really do. It's not magic. It just takes some time, sweat, and effort... things that people seem to want to avoid, these days.

Playing good music is hard, people.
Well, I can't be the judge of when convenience is the enemy of your creativity; but it's certainly isn't the enemy of mine. If you're suggesting my wanting to recall a patch at the touch of a button means I don't understand my gear, you need to seriously revise your position. I also don't need patch sheets, I'm not sure who mentioned that but that's not what I'm talking about.

Patch storage means that when I un-mute my bass and snare drum with two fingers while simultaneously cutting the bass frequencies from my breakbeat with the other fingers on that hand, I can reach over with the other hand, switch song 1's lead to song 2's bass on the synth, AND load the sequences for song 2 so that the the new parts are ready to come in in the 4-8 bars I need them to, along with the new sounds that just loaded into my sampler.

It also means that I can get more out of my tracks: If I want to quickly go back and forth between two radically different timbres in a single song for only a few bars, I can just hit the button on beat and then continue orchestrating the rest of the song. I don't need a separate person to just change the knob positions. I don't even want the sound morphing between the two timbres! I don't want to use two tracks, or two physical synths to do it: and why the h**l would I when I can use one track and play it myself with one synth by hitting a button? Because sweat, effort, and playing music should be hard? Get real! This is the kind of live playing you might not have been thinking about.
+edit - stupid spelling... :cry:
Last edited by ninja6485 on Tue Feb 25, 2014 10:02 pm, edited 2 times in total.
This looks like a psychotropic reaction. No wonder it's so popular...

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Re: Korg to release ARP Odyssey

Post by ninja6485 » Tue Feb 25, 2014 10:00 pm

Automatic Gainsay wrote:Hey, come on. It's been a long time since I posted a novel here. Give me a break. :)
:drinks: :lol:
This looks like a psychotropic reaction. No wonder it's so popular...

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Re: Korg to release ARP Odyssey

Post by griffin avid » Tue Feb 25, 2014 10:05 pm

Are you really advocating not knowing your craft so that you can be creative in it?
The craft is being mixed with 'crafting'. Making music is the thing being done. Creating every patch on the fly is a workflow choice. The two never have to meet.

And maybe it's you too - with the ambiguous clarity. For many (I thought we covered this) noodling with musical passages is the starting point to their songs. You know humming melodies and thinking about WHAT the song will be about. For others, it starts with cool sounds as the inspirational starting point. And so, I can simply have a thought and begin to look for a tone that matches the melody and someone else may think about how to synthesize a tone from scratch that fits. Well, yeah. Either person may want to start at a basic foundation, which very well...*Might* possibly be a .....oh no! gasp.....preset.


Yes, there is an inverse proportion between creativity and knowledge... the more you know, the more it can limit your creativity... but the LESS you know, the more likely you are to do something that you think sounds cool that countless others have done.
That's more about knowing the history of the subject and having a historical context. Listen to a lot of music and you probably have that already.

And in reverse, you can certainly MASTER SYNTH PROGRAMMING and still repeat off the works of others. Knowing your synth inside and out does not lead to creativity or originality.

I'm sorry, Griffin... but a lot of these sound like excuses to me.
Excuse for what? Never said DON'T learn to program your synth. I never said AVOID learning synthesis.
I don't need an EXCUSE to want/use patch storage.

Yes, we are not speaking in extremes..like..
NO, never SAVE ANYTHING. You must learn your synth or else!!!!!!
Never create! Always use the included soundbank AS IS! Never Tweak!

========================================

And besides all this, I'm talking about the highest mode of vibration, where you are far beyond your comfort zone and the stuff you do surprises....even you. The point you look back and think 'how did I do that? How did I come up with that?' It's not in the formula of programming. It always lies beyond your own level of understanding.

Hopefully that limit is indeed at some far off point and not just changing waveforms.
The difference between expected results and beyond expectations.
And you can still reach there AFTER knowing your stuff(s) inside and out.

That's what I was referring to.
Certainly an engineer can show up and try to remove the magic.
But I still like surprises.
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Re: Korg to release ARP Odyssey

Post by commodorejohn » Tue Feb 25, 2014 10:28 pm

Suffice to say, all arguments about the merits of patch storage aside, anybody who seriously thinks that Korg is going to add to their Odyssey a feature like patch storage that wasn't there before and that impacts every part of the system apparently hasn't been paying attention for the MS-20 Mini or the Volcas.
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Re: Korg to release ARP Odyssey

Post by ninja6485 » Tue Feb 25, 2014 10:49 pm

commodorejohn wrote:Suffice to say, all arguments about the merits of patch storage aside, anybody who seriously thinks that Korg is going to add to their Odyssey a feature like patch storage that wasn't there before and that impacts every part of the system apparently hasn't been paying attention for the MS-20 Mini or the Volcas.
Oh, you're right without a doubt. I would be very suprised if they give it patch storage. It would be nice if they did, but I doubt they will.
This looks like a psychotropic reaction. No wonder it's so popular...

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Re: Korg to release ARP Odyssey

Post by ninja6485 » Tue Feb 25, 2014 10:52 pm

Actually, if it would change the nature of the odyssey's components, than maybe it wouldn't be nice if they did! :lol:
This looks like a psychotropic reaction. No wonder it's so popular...

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Re: Korg to release ARP Odyssey

Post by Aaron2 » Tue Feb 25, 2014 11:01 pm

Automatic Gainsay wrote:In general, though... come on. Every time an analog synth comes out, everyone whines and cries about how it needs tuning or needs patch storage or needs presets or needs extensive MIDI implementation.

If you need all that s**t:

1. This sort of synth isn't made for you.

2. You should buy one of these synths and stop relying on convenience. LEARN
To be truthful, I really don't care whether I'm perceived as someone who "need all that s**t" or not. I just want the new Odyssey to be affordable. If that means no patch storage (or even no MIDI), so be it. h**l, I'm down with 1/4" CV/Gate ins and outs if that makes it cheaper! :lol:

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