synths as investment

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Re: synths as investment

Post by Percivale » Mon Mar 31, 2014 2:19 am

Where commodities/goods are concerned, behaviour as such is pretty common. By collecting something, some will inevitably commit a "moral slip" to resort to scalping and make money. Whether the money goes back into investing in the trade/hobby or something else is a separate matter.

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Re: synths as investment

Post by SeventhStar » Mon Mar 31, 2014 2:23 am

The whole collector mentality is a fixation on value and what things are worth. If something becomes worthless, or has the potential to soon become worthless, it is no longer of any interest to most collectors.

Car collectors are abundant out here, where I am. Case in point, there are more HemiCudas in AZ than any other state in the country. And guess what, you would never know it, because most of them are hidden away in collector's garages and never actually driven on the street.. In rare cases you might actually see one at a car show.. But that is rare. Where do you really see them at? The big collector car auctions out here, like at Barrett-Jackson, where that orange, 70 HemiCuda convertible sold for $2 million, a few years back. At least the particular collector who bought that one actually drives his "investments" on the street, at times.. His cohorts think he is nuts for doing so..

What if vintage synths ever became worth $2 million? I guess if that happens, maybe a few people might actually still play them.. For the most part they would become collector showcase museum pieces. "These are investments my friend, so DON'T TOUCH them!!" (actual quote from a real AZ muscle car collector). "Well, should I come back to your garage, later, in a bio-suit before viewing them??"

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Re: synths as investment

Post by yorgatron » Mon Mar 31, 2014 3:51 am

SeventhStar wrote: ...there are more HemiCudas in AZ than any other state in the country... most of them are hidden away in collector's garages and never actually driven on the street... In rare cases you might actually see one at a car show...
but for every Hemi-Cuda there are a thousand other different cars that cost a heck of a lot less money.
a 'Cuda with a 340 and a 4-speed could be bought for a fraction of the other, and just as much fun,

same situation with me. instead of a Minimoog and an Odyssey I have a Prodigy and an Axxe.

if you want to carry the analogy further, I think the younger generation is more likely to buy a Subaru WRX and a Minibrute. they can't comprehend why someone would spend so much money on outdated equipment, and they have little patience for the maintenance they require.

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Re: synths as investment

Post by commodorejohn » Mon Mar 31, 2014 5:16 am

yorgatron wrote:if you want to carry the analogy further, I think the younger generation is more likely to buy a Subaru WRX and a Minibrute. they can't comprehend why someone would spend so much money on outdated equipment, and they have little patience for the maintenance they require.
As someone who's not out of "the younger generation" just yet (I'm still about a year and a half away from being 30, that counts, right?) I say phooey to that. I understand the appeal of vintage gear perfectly, while also being able to appreciate the new stuff for its own merits.

(And I drive used '90s sedans.)
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Re: synths as investment

Post by 8bit9bot » Mon Mar 31, 2014 5:28 am

synths are an investment... as in... they can enable you to make money creating music or sound design - other than that... its all silly games... and i do not participate in that nonsense

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Re: synths as investment

Post by Hybrid88 » Mon Mar 31, 2014 5:57 am

Cumulus wrote:...Someone owning or even hoarding synths has absolutely zero effect on demand. It can affect supply, though, which could cause the prices to rise.
True, but I think it does subtly effect demand too, in the sense that it creates the idea of something as "rare", the word gets out on forums and such and all of a sudden it's a case of 'get it while you still can'.
SeventhStar wrote:The whole collector mentality is a fixation on value and what things are worth. If something becomes worthless, or has the potential to soon become worthless, it is no longer of any interest to most collectors.
This. Demand does change depending on how valued something is by other collectors. Just look and vintage EMS and Buchla prices. :geek:

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Re: synths as investment

Post by ninja6485 » Mon Mar 31, 2014 5:58 am

I feel like very few people are at the fringes of this "distinction." In many and most cases musician and collector go hand in hand. To me the villainous synth hoarding collector seems most likely a projection - a chimera, sitting like a scarecrow on the fringes of our collective perception. Regardless, if person A is willing to spend much more money to acquire something than person B, what right does person B have to attempt to instruct person A in how A aught to use the thing? It's petty jealously to fixate on what other people are and aren't doing with their own property, or to attempt to impose a normative value, viz.. that they have an obligation to do such and such if they own such and such. If they bought it, they can smash it with a hammer if they want. And if you don't like it, well...tough titties!
This looks like a psychotropic reaction. No wonder it's so popular...

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Re: synths as investment

Post by commodorejohn » Mon Mar 31, 2014 6:37 am

People having the right to do what they want with their own property doesn't mean I'm in any way obligated to approve of it.
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Re: synths as investment

Post by SeventhStar » Mon Mar 31, 2014 10:24 am

yorgatron wrote: but for every Hemi-Cuda there are a thousand other different cars that cost a heck of a lot less money.
a 'Cuda with a 340 and a 4-speed could be bought for a fraction of the other, and just as much fun,
Yeah, I owned a small block 1971 Challenger, for over 12 years, that I used as a daily driver. In that I actually drove it daily, for over 12 years. I think I might've gone a week or two without driving it when I had the heads off of it and was installing a Purple Shaft Cam in the engine, but that was the longest it ever sat around. It was my only car at the time. That is not the norm, but as you've probably noticed, I'm not particularly a normal kind of guy.

But the reality of the way the world is, is that there are classes. The Hemi and 440 Six Pack guys, they are in their own little group. The small block guys, and the guys with the 383 Road Runners are the peasants and serfs of the Mopar muscle car world. GM and Ford have similar clicks within those groups too.

Just like you got guys with CS-80s and T8s and then there are guys with Dark Stars.. I like my Dark Star, it's black, makes some kinda cool analog like sounds, doesn't have a pistol grip, but it does have a joystick :D Maybe it's like the 318 of VA synths, sorta, kinda.. It was cheap and it wasn't made in China!

But you can't buy artistic talent.. You either have it or you don't.. And when it comes to playing, it is more about talent and effort put into a piece of music than how expensive your gear is. Music is about expression, expressing yourself. Even if you think you suck, if you get enjoyment out of banging on the keys, that's what it's all about. We play and listen to music because it makes us feel good. Not that I wouldn't maybe feel a little better if I was playing a fully operational Prophet 5 haha.

This has been a marathon synth and music weekend for me. I've just been obsessed with it the whole weekend! Well, my fellow synth nuts, now I'm starting to ramble, so it's time to end this message..

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Re: synths as investment

Post by zoomtheline » Mon Mar 31, 2014 12:59 pm

If I came into a lot of money I would instantly become a synth collector but i WILL use them and probably spend most of my time doing so. I'm sure most of you would do the same.

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Re: synths as investment

Post by stf-ran » Mon Mar 31, 2014 1:06 pm

As I add instruments to my collection, I certainly consider their future value. And for the most part, all of my gear is hooked up and ready to use. I've always heard that you should collect what you love and if you love music gear, have at it. Can a vintage keyboard portfollio beat the stock market over time? I don't think so. But they are funner than a mutual fund.

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Re: synths as investment

Post by Jonahs » Mon Mar 31, 2014 8:05 pm

most vintage synths that are "expensive" today were really just stupidly undervalued and for the most part prices still haven't risen above what they were new. the 303 was the only one i'd say was a really good investment.

i think it's a risky game to speculate like that now. i don't think vintage (analog) synths (that you aren't using) are a good investment at this point, because while i think they will go up in price, it's a lot of money to sink into something and will likely need repairs.

looking back pre cheap digital recording i can understand why people didn't want analog gear, but anyone with ears could tell it sounded cool. it's funny that people dumped them for faster computer systems without realizing that the computers would make the downsides to analog gear mostly irrelevant.

on the other hand, i think most people have a hard time passing up a deal! if i know something is good and i feel it's undervalued i'll get it. i like some cheap samplers and i think i'm just ahead of my time, :lol: but i'm not buying them to sell them.

after i sold my dx100 for 4 times(!) what i paid for it, i did buy some other cheap ones just to sell, but in the time spent buying, testing, cleaning, selling, shipping, i'd rather make music.

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Re: synths as investment

Post by madmarkmagee » Tue Apr 01, 2014 3:08 am

Haha, pretty silly thing to invest in. You'd probably buy it, have it for a week and then something would blow up on it and then you'd have to pay a tech to get it fixed.

+ what are you going to do when a reissue is released and wipes the value off the original.

Maybe if you bough up a ton of synth in the v early nineties and sold them now, but I can't see vintage prices going anywhere ATM.

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Re: synths as investment

Post by CZ Rider » Tue Apr 01, 2014 6:20 am

SeventhStar wrote:Car collectors are abundant out here, where I am. Case in point, there are more HemiCudas in AZ than any other state in the country. And guess what, you would never know it, because most of them are hidden away in collector's garages and never actually driven on the street..
That's funny! My brother, back around 1980, purchased a 1970 Cuda' for $4K. I remember telling him he was crazy paying that much for a 10 year old car. Turns out, it only had 36K miles on it and was an original six-pack Cuda' in really nice condition. Had all the options, track pack with the SS springs, hemi 4-speed with the pistol grip, fog lights, fins on the rocker panels, shaker, but no power steering on those HP versions. Anyhow I thought he was even crazier for never driving it, storing it in a garage, and just taking it out every few years. Turns out he was smart, that damn thing is worth quite a bit now. Who knew?
A little dusty, but still look the same as when he found it 34 years ago.
Image

Anyhow, synthesizers are a bit different where if you don't abuse them, playing them does not hurt the resale value. If anything playing them regularly helps keep the caps charged and pots/contacts from getting scratchy.
Lucky for me a professor at Long Island University had the same idea as my brother. He purchased a Moog modular IP from another professor back around 1980 for about 2K. Guess he figured it was worth holding on to. He kept it stored in a room for years, and played it rarely. I purchased it from him in 2007, just before those prices went through the roof. I paid a fair price at the time, but could not afford to buy one at today's prices. His being a collector enabled me to purchase a near mint 1969 Moog that looked like it was kept in a time capsule. This Moog originally came from a famous studio in Manhattan, and was not played much. Did not have the typical University use where every music student abused it like many old Moogs went through.
So although I don't think much of collecting musical instruments, for the sake of collecting or investment. There is a good chance it will someday end up in the hands of someone that will play it every day. Thanks to a few collectors, I have some really nice time capsule instruments, I could not afford when they were made new. And I play them daily! :D

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Re: synths as investment

Post by pflosi » Tue Apr 01, 2014 9:06 am

Jonahs wrote:most vintage synths that are "expensive" today were really just stupidly undervalued and for the most part prices still haven't risen above what they were new. the 303 was the only one i'd say was a really good investment.
Exactly! :thumbleft: Not a single synth, except for the 303, fetches higher prices now than new. See the thread on inflation.
madmarkmagee wrote:what are you going to do when a reissue is released and wipes the value off the original.
And how often has that happened? MS20, Minimoog, SEM, Prophets, x0xb0xes, Les Pauls... The originals hold their value.

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