The Moog Modular was not an April's fool joke

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Re: The Moog Modular was not an April's fool joke

Post by CZ Rider » Mon Apr 28, 2014 5:10 am

Stab Frenzy wrote: All VCOs I have also have a trimmer to set the intonation as well as the tune, it's just that after I set the intonation 3-4 years ago I haven't had to touch it since.
Talking modular oscillators here. Adjusting the intonation response on a modular synthesizer is part of the fun. That same patch with two oscillators with one precisely 1 volt per octave, changing the other oscillator to a slightly different scale can give a detuning across a wide range where the beat rate of detuning stays constant. Some call it linear detuning. Sounds good when the low notes beating against each other have the same slow beating at the higher registers. Several other uses including micro/macro tuning. Many overlook oscillator intonation as set and forget, but there is more to modular synthesizers if you dig deeper. Adjusting intonation is just one of those fun different things you can do on a modular. Try it, you may like it!

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Re: The Moog Modular was not an April's fool joke

Post by madmarkmagee » Mon Apr 28, 2014 6:09 am

CZ Rider wrote: Not the same technicians/engineers resonsible for the digital controlled analog Moog products offered today. So a new division perhaps, using original Bob Moog designs.

Do modern moogs use dcos? I thought they were completely analog. Are they like dsi/Juno 106 DCOs ? Or MS - 20 'digitally stabilised' VCOs? Can someone please explain to me the difference? You can drive moogs and the Ms 20 oscs with cv, but you can't drive a dsi or a Juno with it.

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Re: The Moog Modular was not an April's fool joke

Post by CZ Rider » Mon Apr 28, 2014 6:27 am

madmarkmagee wrote: Do modern moogs use dcos? I thought they were completely analog. Are they like dsi/Juno 106 DCOs ? Or MS - 20 'digitally stabilised' VCOs? Can someone please explain to me the difference? You can drive moogs and the Ms 20 oscs with cv, but you can't drive a dsi or a Juno with it.
They use an analog signal path with analog components. The Voyager oscillators are free running analog, they just have controls that are digitized. That is how the presets work. And all the front panel knobs are digitally scanned and converted to analog CV's. The Voyager old school was the non-digital version. This is the modern Moog. All the later models follow a similar design where every control can be MIDI CC controlled. Some like it, some don't. They aren't digital synthesizers, but are digital controlled analog circuits. There are some trade offs to using such methods. Sometimes a lag when turning a knob, or snapping to a certian setting. But you get patch storage.

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Re: The Moog Modular was not an April's fool joke

Post by Stab Frenzy » Mon Apr 28, 2014 6:39 am

CZ Rider wrote:
Stab Frenzy wrote: All VCOs I have also have a trimmer to set the intonation as well as the tune, it's just that after I set the intonation 3-4 years ago I haven't had to touch it since.
Talking modular oscillators here. Adjusting the intonation response on a modular synthesizer is part of the fun. That same patch with two oscillators with one precisely 1 volt per octave, changing the other oscillator to a slightly different scale can give a detuning across a wide range where the beat rate of detuning stays constant. Some call it linear detuning. Sounds good when the low notes beating against each other have the same slow beating at the higher registers. Several other uses including micro/macro tuning. Many overlook oscillator intonation as set and forget, but there is more to modular synthesizers if you dig deeper. Adjusting intonation is just one of those fun different things you can do on a modular. Try it, you may like it!
I'm talking modulars too. :thumbright: All my VCOs have both linear and expo FM as well as V/Oct inputs so I don't need to throw my intonation out to get those results.

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Re: The Moog Modular was not an April's fool joke

Post by pflosi » Mon Apr 28, 2014 9:31 am

Most of my modular VCOs even have two scaling trimmers, a separate one for high CV. But they also do typically track 8 octaves without a problem, even the one I have which is based on the 901 :thumbright: Never had to adjust any of those so far. They also have lin and exp FM, and if I want microtonal control there's quantizers that do that.

CP: check this


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Re: The Moog Modular was not an April's fool joke

Post by meatballfulton » Mon Apr 28, 2014 12:36 pm

CZ Rider wrote:Adjusting the intonation response on a modular synthesizer is part of the fun.
:banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead:

One reason I gave up on vintage analog and modulars in general was tuning/scaling issues. I've been in my analogs trimming and scaling for hours and to me it's time I could have spent playing music.

I love DCOs. Puts me in the minority, I know.
I listened to Hatfield and the North at Rainbow. They were very wonderful and they made my heart a prisoner.

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Re: The Moog Modular was not an April's fool joke

Post by pflosi » Mon Apr 28, 2014 2:33 pm

I will reiterate: modern spec high quality modular VCOs WILL NOT need constant retuning!

Maybe the Moogs will though :lol: If it's authentic then certainly they'll also track rather 1.01V/oct than 1V/oct :mrgreen:

And again: if you wanna mess with the intonation, get a flexible quantizer.

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Re: The Moog Modular was not an April's fool joke

Post by meatballfulton » Mon Apr 28, 2014 5:05 pm

Best VCOs I have ever used tuning/scaling wise were dotcom. They even offer an option so when you switch octaves, they stay in perfect tune (pretty essential for live performance).

When I see modular VCOs without octave switches or two knobs for coarse/fine tuning I just think epic fail. 50 years after the first Moogs it's amazing how many mfrs still don't bother to address the basic weaknesses.

Actually, with the dotcom ladder filter and Q960 sequencer both based on Moog designs if I was jonesing for a Moog modular, I'd just get another dotcom and skip the S-trigs and other Moog BS.
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Re: The Moog Modular was not an April's fool joke

Post by Automatic Gainsay » Mon Apr 28, 2014 5:13 pm

CZ Rider wrote:
madmarkmagee wrote: Do modern moogs use dcos? I thought they were completely analog. Are they like dsi/Juno 106 DCOs ? Or MS - 20 'digitally stabilised' VCOs? Can someone please explain to me the difference? You can drive moogs and the Ms 20 oscs with cv, but you can't drive a dsi or a Juno with it.
They use an analog signal path with analog components. The Voyager oscillators are free running analog, they just have controls that are digitized. That is how the presets work. And all the front panel knobs are digitally scanned and converted to analog CV's. The Voyager old school was the non-digital version. This is the modern Moog. All the later models follow a similar design where every control can be MIDI CC controlled. Some like it, some don't. They aren't digital synthesizers, but are digital controlled analog circuits. There are some trade offs to using such methods. Sometimes a lag when turning a knob, or snapping to a certian setting. But you get patch storage.
This is precisely why I have lost interest in modern Moog synthesizers. I'm fine when I am not constantly reminded of a digital spectre standing between my hands and the analog circuit path, but that spectre bit me in the face several times while using some recent products. No thanks.
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Re: The Moog Modular was not an April's fool joke

Post by Esus » Mon Apr 28, 2014 5:23 pm

Esus wrote:
calaverasgrande wrote:I am still unclear over whether this is a product, a joke or a one off.

You do realize this is April 1st, and we're dealing with Moog, right?

Too bad Moog keeps identifying and branding with a past that they have no intention of returning to... :roll:
Well, looks like I might be eating those words. :oops:

Somebody pass the crow, please.

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Re: The Moog Modular was not an April's fool joke

Post by calaverasgrande » Mon Apr 28, 2014 5:33 pm

Stab Frenzy wrote:
madmarkmagee wrote: Why? There's already a million vanilla oscs and ladder LPFs in Euro, Moog making some more would add precisely nothing but the name. I'd like to see them do something different and interesting in Euro, like they've done with the foogers. That would be pretty cool.
Automatic Gainsay wrote:Don't forget the CPs! They are an important part of the "Moog Sound." But yes, I agree!
STG and Manhattan Analog both make a CP3 clone in Euro (and STG do in 5U). I have both and they sound great. :thumbleft: But yes, that's another thing that Moog shouldn't waste their time doing, they should do something new and interesting.

Personally I think that if Moog were to make some Euro modules they'd be much bigger, wider, Macbeth style modules, I can't see them doing Euro with the typical tiny cramped layouts that are so common in Euro (and which I love because you can it so much in a small case for gigging). Then again if you want wider, Macbeth style modules that sound like a Moog then Macbeth already has you covered. I just don't see a niche for Moog in Euro apart from a) people who'll buy cause it says 'moog' on it and b) Eurofoogers. Admittedly they're both fairly big niches.
You've said this on many other topics and I simply have to disagree.
While it may not make sense to you, it makes sense to me.
(and yes I will buy it just because it says moog on it, even my exhaust headers are moog)
I have played and owned a few synths that allegedly have 'the Moog filter' and they rarely do quite what I like about the Moog. Even among Moogs that are supposed to have the same filter there are variations that sound different.

If anything, I'd expect Moog not to do Eurorack format if they started selling modules but rather do the original Moog/MOTM/synthesizers.com sized format.
Waaaahhh! their too big!
Have you seen a Moogerfooger? Or any of the recent Moog synths? They are all too big for what they do!

I do agree it would be swell to see a murph, delay or cluster flux as a module, though aren't a lot of these moogerfoogers just a modular patch in a box anyway? That is how I have always thought of most of the later ones past the filter, phaser and delay. Shucks I guess the ringmod is too now that I think of it.
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Re: The Moog Modular was not an April's fool joke

Post by meatballfulton » Mon Apr 28, 2014 6:22 pm

Automatic Gainsay wrote:This is precisely why I have lost interest in modern Moog synthesizers. I'm fine when I am not constantly reminded of a digital spectre standing between my hands and the analog circuit path, but that spectre bit me in the face several times while using some recent products. No thanks.
It's pretty obvious to me that some digital tricks were needed to make the Sub Phatty work...the ultra cool VCO beating trick perhaps being the best example.

I've gotten beyond my 100% analog fetish, as long as there's an analog audio path I'm not very concerned about CVs being driven by digital circuitry as long as it's properly smoothed.
I listened to Hatfield and the North at Rainbow. They were very wonderful and they made my heart a prisoner.

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Re: The Moog Modular was not an April's fool joke

Post by CZ Rider » Mon Apr 28, 2014 8:10 pm

meatballfulton wrote:It's pretty obvious to me that some digital tricks were needed to make the Sub Phatty work...the ultra cool VCO beating trick perhaps being the best example.
Isn't this the exact same thing as tuning one of the oscillators to have a slightly different intonation?
That was the patch I described where the end user can have a dial on the front panel of a modular to fully control the amount of detune via changing the intonation slightly without needing to turn any internal trimmers. Easy and simple patch and gets the same result, no?

Moog Music just dummied it up. Calling it beating, beat frequency, linear detune or whatever you call it, you get the same result. They could have just as easily called it oscillator 2 intonation, but Moog called it oscillator 2 beat frequency. In the end it is trying to emulate what the old Moog 901's and Taurus did by design.

The digital implementations make for a great way to add features perhaps not thought of when those products are released. The digital envelope looping was one of them. There were a few others, and this seems the direction that division of Moog is taking. Most of it new and unique.

Now, reintroducing 60's modular technology is a step in a different direction. Perhaps taking on all those that wanted repro Moog modules for their instruments. Since the old Moog Custom Engineering went belly up, Moog music may see a void where they could sell some modules to these customers with deep pockets. I for one already stated I would purchase a 901B module if they were to begin producing them again. But they did it the old Moog way using AMP 22 pin duo-tyne connectors mounted with C frames and +12/-6 volt rails. These should fit in any Moog modular, and no one today is offering Moog compatable modules. Trying to fit these in any modern system will have compatibility issues. Kind of like going to a Ferrari dealer to purchase parts for your Volkswagen. I know those 5U Moog modules look compatable to modern systems on the outside, but much of what goes on the inside is not. I get nothing but square wave clipping from the sawtooth from any modern or vintage 10 volt P-P oscillator, Dotcom, MOTM, Roland 100M, Aries running those hot signals through the Moog circuits. I think Moog would have been foolish to try to redisign the Bob Moog circuits to modern standards. Too many others are doing this right now. But there is zero competition for real authentic compatable Moog modules. Not for everyone, but some may find this just what they need. Only time will tell if Moog music goes forward with this and begins to offer products like Moog Custom Engineering did where you could purchase individual modules or systems.

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Re: The Moog Modular was not an April's fool joke

Post by Stab Frenzy » Tue Apr 29, 2014 7:55 am

calaverasgrande wrote:
Stab Frenzy wrote:Why? There's already a million vanilla oscs and ladder LPFs in Euro, Moog making some more would add precisely nothing but the name. I'd like to see them do something different and interesting in Euro, like they've done with the foogers. That would be pretty cool.
Automatic Gainsay wrote:Don't forget the CPs! They are an important part of the "Moog Sound." But yes, I agree!
STG and Manhattan Analog both make a CP3 clone in Euro (and STG do in 5U). I have both and they sound great. :thumbleft: But yes, that's another thing that Moog shouldn't waste their time doing, they should do something new and interesting.

Personally I think that if Moog were to make some Euro modules they'd be much bigger, wider, Macbeth style modules, I can't see them doing Euro with the typical tiny cramped layouts that are so common in Euro (and which I love because you can it so much in a small case for gigging). Then again if you want wider, Macbeth style modules that sound like a Moog then Macbeth already has you covered. I just don't see a niche for Moog in Euro apart from a) people who'll buy cause it says 'moog' on it and b) Eurofoogers. Admittedly they're both fairly big niches.
You've said this on many other topics and I simply have to disagree.
While it may not make sense to you, it makes sense to me.
(and yes I will buy it just because it says moog on it, even my exhaust headers are moog)
I have played and owned a few synths that allegedly have 'the Moog filter' and they rarely do quite what I like about the Moog. Even among Moogs that are supposed to have the same filter there are variations that sound different.

If anything, I'd expect Moog not to do Eurorack format if they started selling modules but rather do the original Moog/MOTM/synthesizers.com sized format.
Waaaahhh! their too big!
Have you seen a Moogerfooger? Or any of the recent Moog synths? They are all too big for what they do!

I do agree it would be swell to see a murph, delay or cluster flux as a module, though aren't a lot of these moogerfoogers just a modular patch in a box anyway? That is how I have always thought of most of the later ones past the filter, phaser and delay. Shucks I guess the ringmod is too now that I think of it.
I think you must be misunderstanding what I wrote, because it seems we're on the same wavelength here. Regarding Moogalikes that don't do what you like from the Moogs, check out the Macbeth backend filter. I don't think they'll do Euro either, that's why I said if they did they'd be much bigger modules, like the Macbeths. I'm talking 42hp here. But yes, it's much more likely that they'd do 5U, even though the big market in modular at the moment is Euro. I've got the MF-104Z and it's big, I agree. I'd love to see it in Euro though, because the Pittsburgh Analog Delay I got so I wouldn't have to take the 104 out gigging just doesn't have the same magic. The 104 is still smaller than the Yamaha E1010 I used to gig with though. Yes the Moogerfoogers are very modular in their implementation, but the patch points being on the back is a pain. I guess it would be pretty easy to slip their boards behind double-width 5U panels and have the patch points on the front though. That would be cool for the 5U guys. :thumbleft:

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Re: The Moog Modular was not an April's fool joke

Post by Stab Frenzy » Tue Apr 29, 2014 8:07 am

meatballfulton wrote:
Automatic Gainsay wrote:This is precisely why I have lost interest in modern Moog synthesizers. I'm fine when I am not constantly reminded of a digital spectre standing between my hands and the analog circuit path, but that spectre bit me in the face several times while using some recent products. No thanks.
It's pretty obvious to me that some digital tricks were needed to make the Sub Phatty work...the ultra cool VCO beating trick perhaps being the best example.
Constant voltage through the pot and into the linear FM input of the VCO, no digital needed at all. :thumbleft:

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