When will we see a new (non-DSI) analog poly?

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Re: When will we see a new (non-DSI) analog poly?

Post by knolan » Mon May 26, 2014 11:09 am

Oops - thanks for pointing out my stupidity :oops:

madmarkmagee - my wholehearted apology to you for misreading your post and accusing you of regarding me as posting as a Roland ad.

I could edit my post and remove my stupid reaction but masmarkmagee deserves my apology - apologies once again.


Sincere regards to all.
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Re: When will we see a new (non-DSI) analog poly?

Post by Ashe37 » Mon May 26, 2014 11:18 am

meanwhile, knolan, Thanks for pointing out the aliasing problem. I'll see if the FA06 has it too.

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Re: When will we see a new (non-DSI) analog poly?

Post by Automatic Gainsay » Mon May 26, 2014 7:46 pm

Rezisehtnys wrote:
calaverasgrande wrote:besides the Theremin was the first real synth.
Telharmonium was 1897, Theremin was 1928. ;)
Well, the final most popularized version of the Telharmonium was in 1906, and Theremin's theremin had its first working model in 1920 (although I've heard rumors of 1917 as origin). Theremin gained worldwide acclaim in 1928, and the RCA theremin was released in 1929.

All of that being said, the theremin was probably the first mass-produced electronic musical instrument... but in the synthesis department, not really. Synthesis isn't just the creation of electronic noise, it's about the authorship of sound. The Telharmonium may have been electro-mechanical, but it did engage of all of the elements of synthesis, whereas the theremin does not. Not to diminish the importance of the theremin, of course! But yeah... not a synthesizer, really.
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Re: When will we see a new (non-DSI) analog poly?

Post by calaverasgrande » Mon May 26, 2014 8:03 pm

Automatic Gainsay wrote:
Rezisehtnys wrote:
calaverasgrande wrote:besides the Theremin was the first real synth.
Telharmonium was 1897, Theremin was 1928. ;)
Well, the final most popularized version of the Telharmonium was in 1906, and Theremin's theremin had its first working model in 1920 (although I've heard rumors of 1917 as origin). Theremin gained worldwide acclaim in 1928, and the RCA theremin was released in 1929.

All of that being said, the theremin was probably the first mass-produced electronic musical instrument... but in the synthesis department, not really. Synthesis isn't just the creation of electronic noise, it's about the authorship of sound. The Telharmonium may have been electro-mechanical, but it did engage of all of the elements of synthesis, whereas the theremin does not. Not to diminish the importance of the theremin, of course! But yeah... not a synthesizer, really.
I was joking!
A theremin is a synthetic instrument, but not really a synth. Every theremin I have ever seen has no real controls for synthesis.
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Re: When will we see a new (non-DSI) analog poly?

Post by pflosi » Tue May 27, 2014 5:14 pm

Image

:mrgreen:

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Re: When will we see a new (non-DSI) analog poly?

Post by calaverasgrande » Tue May 27, 2014 9:33 pm

Got me!
I actually always laugh when I see the Doepfer racks with the theremin antennas. It almost seems like it's a fashion accessory more than a function that is used.
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Re: When will we see a new (non-DSI) analog poly?

Post by Kenneth » Tue May 27, 2014 10:59 pm

Automatic Gainsay wrote:
madmarkmagee wrote:I wouldn't say that mono's are better than polys. That's crazy talk.
I'm good at crazy talk.

I prefer monos because of the sad thing that happens to synthesizers when you make them polyphonic. There is no reason why a synthesizer should play 4 or 6 or 8 carbon copies of the timbres, pitches, etc. you've chosen each time you play a chord. That is the way that organs and pianos and etc. behave. The concept for synthesizers should have been that you got to choose what each voice would be doing... more of an orchestral model (if we're going to use antiquated models for a modern instrument) than a piano model.
But because the polyphony problem has been a problem since the early part of the 20th century, it was much easier to just give every single note the same treatment and timbre as any other note. Rock musicians were happy. The end.
But because polyphonic synthesizers (most of them, anyway... I love you Korg MonoPoly and Oberheim (x) Voice) follow the piano model, people play them like pianos or other emulative instruments. It's just such a limited application of a limitless potential, and we all always play the same sort of c**p on them (myself included).
If someone would make a polyphonic analog synth that allowed me to control oscillator, filter, and amp per note, then I would be much more excited about the polyphonic concept, and synthesizer music would be a lot more interesting and complex. Of course, I know it'd be expensive and complicated to pull that off... and that's why it hasn't happened.

I think you should sit tight, Kenneth.
I know where you're coming from, Marc, and I agree with you. My comment directed toward you in the OP was meant as a friendly jab, nothing more. That being said, I don't think this concept of a "true polyphonic" synthesizer as you have described will ever be budget friendly without introducing digital aspects to the design. So, we settle for less, or make do without.
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Re: When will we see a new (non-DSI) analog poly?

Post by SeventhStar » Thu May 29, 2014 12:45 am

Automatic Gainsay wrote:
madmarkmagee wrote:I wouldn't say that mono's are better than polys. That's crazy talk.
I'm good at crazy talk.

The concept for synthesizers should have been that you got to choose what each voice would be doing... more of an orchestral model (if we're going to use antiquated models for a modern instrument) than a piano model.

If someone would make a polyphonic analog synth that allowed me to control oscillator, filter, and amp per note, then I would be much more excited about the polyphonic concept, and synthesizer music would be a lot more interesting and complex. Of course, I know it'd be expensive and complicated to pull that off... and that's why it hasn't happened.
It happened a long time ago. The Multi-Trak can do it. It is a polyphonic, analog, synth that allows individual control of each oscillator, filter, and amp per note. It also can have a different envelope for each oscillator, filter, and amp per note. Dave Smith did this three decades ago, because he is just awesome that way!

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Re: When will we see a new (non-DSI) analog poly?

Post by synthparts » Thu May 29, 2014 1:30 am

Automatic Gainsay wrote:
madmarkmagee wrote:I wouldn't say that mono's are better than polys. That's crazy talk.
I'm good at crazy talk.

The concept for synthesizers should have been that you got to choose what each voice would be doing... more of an orchestral model (if we're going to use antiquated models for a modern instrument) than a piano model.

If someone would make a polyphonic analog synth that allowed me to control oscillator, filter, and amp per note, then I would be much more excited about the polyphonic concept, and synthesizer music would be a lot more interesting and complex. Of course, I know it'd be expensive and complicated to pull that off... and that's why it hasn't happened.
There are multi-timbral analog polys, don't you know? Alesis Andromeda can do up to 16 different patches in its multi mode...
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Re: When will we see a new (non-DSI) analog poly?

Post by pflosi » Thu May 29, 2014 9:28 am

Yeah but you cannot assign patches to the individual notes, only key zones on the A6. I really wish you could do it...

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Re: When will we see a new (non-DSI) analog poly?

Post by Re-Member » Fri May 30, 2014 6:09 pm

synthparts wrote:There are multi-timbral analog polys, don't you know? Alesis Andromeda can do up to 16 different patches in its multi mode...
There's also Sequential Circuits' Trak series and the Akai AX-60 & 80. Each voice had it's own filter, envelopes, LFO, etc which could be adjusted individually depending on which split mode you choose. All it takes is the right MIDI controller that allows you set up different MIDI channels for each key to trigger a specific voice.

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Re: When will we see a new (non-DSI) analog poly?

Post by steveman » Fri May 30, 2014 10:39 pm

AX80 wasn't multitimbral, v primitive MIDI spec, not even sysex (only tape) storage.

I'll happily take a bet against whoever said it would be Yamaha.

As for the OP there's synths out there that have been suggested, if you can't afford them now keep saving. They're cheaper than they've ever been, not going to get much cheaper. Alpha Juno was £575 in 1986 - around £1400 now.

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Re: When will we see a new (non-DSI) analog poly?

Post by knolan » Wed Jun 04, 2014 10:52 am

Ashe37 wrote:meanwhile, knolan, Thanks for pointing out the aliasing problem. I'll see if the FA06 has it too.
Have you determined if the FA06 has the same problem?

To check - create one instance of a Synth Tone with only one partial active, open the filter (no resonance) and switch off all effects, and no LFO either. Then select PWM on the oscillator and play up the keyboard. If the aliasing is present, you will hear it extremely loudly - in fact on the JP80 and JP50 the aliasing is louder than the PWM itself from about C4 - C5 up.

This is not some background annoyance - it renders PWM useless - PWM on the JP80 and JP50 cannot be used in a quality-critical scenarios, and there is no sign of Roland fixing it.

Is it the same on the FA range - indeed I'd be curios as to whether it's the same on System-1


It would be useful for you to let us know if there's a PWM problem on the FA06.


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Re: When will we see a new (non-DSI) analog poly?

Post by Ashe37 » Wed Jun 04, 2014 8:32 pm

knolan wrote:
Ashe37 wrote:meanwhile, knolan, Thanks for pointing out the aliasing problem. I'll see if the FA06 has it too.
Have you determined if the FA06 has the same problem?

To check - create one instance of a Synth Tone with only one partial active, open the filter (no resonance) and switch off all effects, and no LFO either. Then select PWM on the oscillator and play up the keyboard. If the aliasing is present, you will hear it extremely loudly - in fact on the JP80 and JP50 the aliasing is louder than the PWM itself from about C4 - C5 up.

This is not some background annoyance - it renders PWM useless - PWM on the JP80 and JP50 cannot be used in a quality-critical scenarios, and there is no sign of Roland fixing it.

Is it the same on the FA range - indeed I'd be curios as to whether it's the same on System-1


It would be useful for you to let us know if there's a PWM problem on the FA06.


Kevin.
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