Played a Model D, had an epiphany!

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Re: Played a Model D, had an epiphany!

Post by Cumulus » Mon Oct 27, 2014 3:44 pm

I know it feels a bit creepy asking after the Mini but you could probably find a way to it with some class.

One way would be to offer them a fair price for it. It may be useless to them, just taking up space and they might be happy to have it gone.

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Re: Played a Model D, had an epiphany!

Post by Shanesaw » Mon Oct 27, 2014 5:42 pm

"I've never owned a Mini, but I did have a one on loan for a couple of years. Friend's dad who sadly just passed away recently. (and yes I have too much class to ask after the mini).
That thing doesn't just have a powerful sound, it has a certain kind of way it fits your brain. Maybe it is because so many synths harken back to it, but I find the Mini just kind of flows. Where other synths I often run into these logical dead ends.
I've always thought of the Mini as the Les Paul of Synths. Not only for it's iconic status, but also the way it just fits your hand. And the sounds just blooms out of it.

OTOH the Model D had that charming 70's "just good enough,not better" kind of construction.(Beyond the actual cost of purchasing one you better figure an ongoing maintenance budget equivalent to an E type Jag. They are that flaky and unreliable! Though if you bite the bullet and get one re-capped and repotted I'm sure it will be solid for a few years.
Not that I am trying to smear Moog. I think a lot of our reverence for vintage gear is due to precisely the goofy build quality, and greater tolerance for THD and noise than we would accept in consumer gear today.
You read old electronics texts and they talk about 60-70db snr as best case. THD of 2-3% is all in a days work.
That is kind of the beauty of the old Moogs. They are always distorted and there is always a bit of noise banging around in your CV paths.

Yeah the new Moogs aren't exactly the same. How could they be? They don't make such bad opamps any more. And manufacturing of PCBs has progressed by leaps and bounds. Seriously, look at a card from a Mini. They look like they were made by cavemen compared to the kind of PCBs you see in current Moogs."


^This.

I've always wondered if this is why, 100% analog synths of today, for the most part, lack that "one big sweet spot" sound and feel due to modern advances in manufacturing and rock-solid, pitch-perfect VCO's(I'll stick to VCO's for the sake of this discussion). Well, I guess not ALL but you make a point that I could not have worded better.

Since Korg re-released the ms-20, in mini-format, did they replicate that feel, that sound, that "one big sweet spot" of a synthesizer? If so, and let me add that I'm sure this has been asked many times before, couldn't Moog do the same thing and actually re-release a new Model D, Rougue, micromoog, etc. capturing that essence? <--- regardless of this being a good or bad business move.

I've never played a model D but I've owned a little phatty and currently own a sub phatty, which, by the way, is one sic machine! Also, that video of the model D up above... holy s**t!
"There was never a notion that a synthesizer would be used by itself for anything" - Robert Moog (1934-2005)

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Re: Played a Model D, had an epiphany!

Post by calaverasgrande » Mon Oct 27, 2014 6:36 pm

One thing that I can do on a Minimoog that just doesnt seem to work the same elsewhere is the good old modulating the filter with a bit of noise. Of course you can do this on newer Moogs and other brands of synth. But on the Mini it just sounds like a living thing. No theory on why this is, but when I listen to my recordings from the early 2000's I am doing that about half the time the beast is plugged in, and it sounds like a bloody volcano.
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Re: Played a Model D, had an epiphany!

Post by Bitexion » Mon Oct 27, 2014 7:27 pm

Other players again "hate" the Minimoog because it makes everything sound like 70s-era Rick Wakeman wankery.

"You have THAT lead sound and THAT bass sound and that's it"

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Re: Played a Model D, had an epiphany!

Post by Cumulus » Tue Oct 28, 2014 2:00 pm

Sounds like they just don't know how to work the thing.

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Re: Played a Model D, had an epiphany!

Post by ppg_wavecomputer » Tue Oct 28, 2014 2:46 pm

Cumulus wrote:Sounds like they just don't know how to work the thing.
Hey, Rick Wakeman didn't know either -- and they are all huge Rick Wakeman fans.
Shanesaw wrote: [...] OTOH the Model D had that charming 70's "just good enough,not better" kind of construction. [...]
I beg to differ. Certainly not each single Mini Moog (especially from those revered transition-period production runs) was built to the same standard but I had my 1978 Mini Moog overhauled routinely only once, and I have owned it for 25 years. Try this with an ARP Odyssey (or 2600, for that matter).

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Re: Played a Model D, had an epiphany!

Post by Automatic Gainsay » Tue Oct 28, 2014 2:50 pm

calaverasgrande wrote:OTOH the Model D had that charming 70's "just good enough,not better" kind of construction.(Beyond the actual cost of purchasing one you better figure an ongoing maintenance budget equivalent to an E type Jag. They are that flaky and unreliable! Though if you bite the bullet and get one re-capped and repotted I'm sure it will be solid for a few years.

This is very sadly completely untrue. Unlike most synthesizers made at the time, the Minimoog was subject to Bob Moog's standards, which were very high indeed. The thing is built like a tank. I can't comment on specific component values, but Bob was extremely exacting in regard to his circuit design and components used. It was not "just good enough." It was "better than most."
Bob used to do a charming demonstration where he would knock one off a table to show how durable they were.
On top of that, Minimoogs are neither flaky NOR unreliable. As synths from that period go, they are startlingly solid.
I know for a fact that my Minimoog hasn't been serviced in any way in at least 12 years… not even range/scaled. The only problem with it is that it needs to have the original bushings replaced and the bus bar, etc. cleaned.
I played and recorded a number of Minimoogs, all from the Williamsville era. While some have required more tuning than others, the last things they have ever been were "flaky" or "unreliable." I've also gigged with my Minimoog on many occasions.

Lastly, for the LOVE OF GOD, do not replace a SINGLE THING that doesn't REQUIRE REPLACING due to malfunction or failure.

calaverasgrande wrote:Not that I am trying to smear Moog. I think a lot of our reverence for vintage gear is due to precisely the goofy build quality, and greater tolerance for THD and noise than we would accept in consumer gear today.
You read old electronics texts and they talk about 60-70db snr as best case. THD of 2-3% is all in a days work.
That is kind of the beauty of the old Moogs. They are always distorted and there is always a bit of noise banging around in your CV paths.
Yes, absolutely. In fact, it is the very basis of the Minimoog sound that certain odd choices were made. But you can't compare a thing that is revered specifically for its design to things that were designed with different specs that didn't make them famous. .
calaverasgrande wrote:Yeah the new Moogs aren't exactly the same. How could they be? They don't make such bad opamps any more. And manufacturing of PCBs has progressed by leaps and bounds. Seriously, look at a card from a Mini. They look like they were made by cavemen compared to the kind of PCBs you see in current Moogs.
No, new Moogs are absolutely and totally different.
It is specifically the fact that those PCBs look that way and were designed the way they were and with the components used that MAKE THE THING SOUND THE WAY IT DOES! I'm sure consumer-model accompaniment keyboards are LEAPS AND BOUNDS ahead of circuit designs present in the Minimoog.
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Re: Played a Model D, had an epiphany!

Post by silikon » Tue Oct 28, 2014 3:00 pm

The Minimoog is a great synth, to be sure. Is it all the rainbows and love that everyone gives it? Highly debatable. It's quite a limited synth, architecturally speaking. There are numerous synths that are priced well below it that have tons more tools at their disposal.

I see many people place them on a pedestal and lust after them for ages; get one, fall in lust with it for about a month - then realize that it is JUST A f**k SYNTH and not also going to give their knob a twist.

Minutes later they claim 'jilted lover' status.

I loved mine in all it's elderly glory. Bulletproof, the interface doesn't get in the way, and the bass.
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Re: Played a Model D, had an epiphany!

Post by Walter Ego » Tue Oct 28, 2014 4:42 pm

silikon wrote:I see many people place them on a pedestal and lust after them for ages; get one, fall in lust with it for about a month - then realize that it is JUST A f**k SYNTH and not also going to give their knob a twist.
I heard Moog are currently working on a new synth (in the Phatty line) that actually DOES love you back. They're currently accepting submissions for names.
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Re: Played a Model D, had an epiphany!

Post by silikon » Tue Oct 28, 2014 4:59 pm

Walter Ego wrote:I heard Moog are currently working on a new synth (in the Phatty line) that actually DOES love you back. They're currently accepting submissions for names.
Shag Phatty?
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Re: Played a Model D, had an epiphany!

Post by ppg_wavecomputer » Tue Oct 28, 2014 5:04 pm

Walter Ego wrote:
silikon wrote:I see many people place them on a pedestal and lust after them for ages; get one, fall in lust with it for about a month - then realize that it is JUST A f**k SYNTH and not also going to give their knob a twist.
I heard Moog are currently working on a new synth (in the Phatty line) that actually DOES love you back. They're currently accepting submissions for names.
I wonder whether "Li'l Slut" would be rejected.

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Re: Played a Model D, had an epiphany!

Post by pflosi » Tue Oct 28, 2014 5:06 pm

Automatic Gainsay wrote:Lastly, for the LOVE OF GOD, do not replace a SINGLE THING that doesn't REQUIRE REPLACING due to malfunction or failure.
I think I'll hack a midi interface into mine soon to be able to play nice 101 / 303 style sequences :headbang: :mrgreen:

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Re: Played a Model D, had an epiphany!

Post by Bitexion » Tue Oct 28, 2014 6:26 pm

"The Moog Love Toy, satisfies your every pleasure. *warning: contains latex*"

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Re: Played a Model D, had an epiphany!

Post by calaverasgrande » Tue Oct 28, 2014 7:37 pm

Automatic Gainsay wrote:
This is very sadly completely untrue. Unlike most synthesizers made at the time, the Minimoog was subject to Bob Moog's standards, which were very high indeed. The thing is built like a tank. I can't comment on specific component values, but Bob was extremely exacting in regard to his circuit design and components used. It was not "just good enough." It was "better than most."
Bob used to do a charming demonstration where he would knock one off a table to show how durable they were.
On top of that, Minimoogs are neither flaky NOR unreliable. As synths from that period go, they are startlingly solid.
Maybe I've only ever experienced post-Williamsville or Norlin era Moog. But I've owned and do still own some Moog stuff. Original and new era. I also service a lot of my own gear. I'm not an expert on electronics, admittedly I am pretty much a hack. But IMHO mounting a PCB by only one edge and leaving the rest to just be supported by solder connections, or nothing at all is a recipe for circuit failure. The better design is to mount the PCB on all 4 sides, which I did not see in the Mini I used to have on loan.
Dropping a synth off a table is a neat trick. It was kind of a common thing in that era. Traynor used to do a similar stunt with their amps to 'prove' they were durable. I think Orange did as well.
Not the same thing as riding in the back of a truck between shows, with all the bumps and vibration that includes.
And looking at other Moogs like the Rogue, Micro etc it is hard to say Moog had any record of durability.
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Re: Played a Model D, had an epiphany!

Post by ppg_wavecomputer » Tue Oct 28, 2014 11:54 pm

The Mini Moogs I remember as being rather shoddy in terms of manufacture were those post-10,000 serial numbers, with the cabinet in that awful s**t-brown lacquer finish. I've played a few, and each time I had the impression of "let's throw the rest of the bunch together before they get discontinued"...

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