Behringer discussing making ARP Odyssey now

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Re: Behringer discussing making ARP Odyssey now

Post by calaverasgrande » Thu Jan 08, 2015 9:31 pm

either way, chips, transistors and other components go out of production all the time. Even if both companies decide to make faithful recreations to the best of their abilities it would be a miracle if there is no parts substitution involved. And no change in timbre.
The trick will be of course which one is closest, and if the Korg does have a mini/medi-keybed will it still be enough to placate the potential buyers?
I'm no keyboardist. I'm more of a knob twiddling weirdo. But I am sure some significant segment of the folks with the money and the interest are, and this could be a bigger issue to them.
As far as suck or not. I think any decent analog is good enough so long as it scales/intonates musically and the filter doesnt sound like a plastic pencil box.
Strange as it may seem, I think some of the appealing sound of the old Arps and some other brands were exactly the dodgy capacitors and other things we would want improved. Replace all of those with hi quality electorlytic caps, low noise op-amps and sealed pots and you may find some of that magic gone. ( I actually think a lot of 70's gear 'benefitted' from tantalum caps)
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Re: Behringer discussing making ARP Odyssey now

Post by Automatic Gainsay » Thu Jan 08, 2015 10:37 pm

Broadwave wrote:I have nothing but respect for you, but for the first time ever, I'm afraid I'm going to have to disagree ;) There's no reason why programmability should interfere with the analogue path.

The CV gets read from whatever parameter is being stored, put through an A/D converter for CV value storage, and read via D/A directly back to the parameter CV/Switch etc - It shouldn't affect the "sound" in any way.
I think I need to be a bit more clear about what I'm saying!

Okay, there's no doubt whatsoever that it's possible for a synthesizer to sound and function just fine with the digital aspects necessary for patch memory. And yes, it's even possible for the controllers to have a high enough resolution that the stepping isn't noticeable or even perceptible by humans.

But lack of perceptibility of stepping and not having stepping are two different things. We can't weigh our individual lack of perception against the physical actuality of a situation.

Because digital functionality converted to CV is different than CV, it functions differently and has different outcomes. That's fine in a new device, but not fine for a reproduction. While it's easily possible to fool the ear under certain conditions, I can't imagine how anyone can say that there is no difference. There can be VAST differences between the outcomes and resultant sounds between digital data being converted to control voltage and simply what pots do with control voltage.

In a traditional analog synth, the sound is literally passing through the pot itself. The structure and function of the pot plays a role in what happens to the voltage going through it. The knob plays a role in the sound in addition to how it is used. The knob is PART OF THE ANALOG SIGNAL PATH. Let's face it: this whole "analog signal path" is a thing marketers say to inspire the ignorant and calm the purists... but it is a different thing than "analog synthesizer" or "discrete synthesizer," especially.

What it comes down to is "whether the often very subtle differences actually matter." For many, they don't... and that's fine. But if you're going to recreate a synth from the past... there is no point in doing it if you're not going to recreate its sound. The injection of a digital interface into a vintage analog synthesizer is going to change its sound... there are no two ways around it. Yes, there will be people who say they can't tell the difference. Yes, there will be people who say they'd trade the tone for the convenience, and there will always be those who would rather just weirdly have the thing be nothing like what it was and be set up to suit their EDM production needs. But this thing is a REPRODUCTION... changing the functionality for convenience, even if it doesn't change the sound very much at all, makes the thing pointless. They might as well just design a different analog synthesizer.
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Re: Behringer discussing making ARP Odyssey now

Post by ninja6485 » Thu Jan 08, 2015 10:59 pm

Automatic Gainsay wrote:
Broadwave wrote:I have nothing but respect for you, but for the first time ever, I'm afraid I'm going to have to disagree ;) There's no reason why programmability should interfere with the analogue path.

The CV gets read from whatever parameter is being stored, put through an A/D converter for CV value storage, and read via D/A directly back to the parameter CV/Switch etc - It shouldn't affect the "sound" in any way.
I think I need to be a bit more clear about what I'm saying!

Okay, there's no doubt whatsoever that it's possible for a synthesizer to sound and function just fine with the digital aspects necessary for patch memory. And yes, it's even possible for the controllers to have a high enough resolution that the stepping isn't noticeable or even perceptible by humans.

But lack of perceptibility of stepping and not having stepping are two different things. We can't weigh our individual lack of perception against the physical actuality of a situation.

Because digital functionality converted to CV is different than CV, it functions differently and has different outcomes. That's fine in a new device, but not fine for a reproduction. While it's easily possible to fool the ear under certain conditions, I can't imagine how anyone can say that there is no difference. There can be VAST differences between the outcomes and resultant sounds between digital data being converted to control voltage and simply what pots do with control voltage.

In a traditional analog synth, the sound is literally passing through the pot itself. The structure and function of the pot plays a role in what happens to the voltage going through it. The knob plays a role in the sound in addition to how it is used. The knob is PART OF THE ANALOG SIGNAL PATH. Let's face it: this whole "analog signal path" is a thing marketers say to inspire the ignorant and calm the purists... but it is a different thing than "analog synthesizer" or "discrete synthesizer," especially.

What it comes down to is "whether the often very subtle differences actually matter." For many, they don't... and that's fine. But if you're going to recreate a synth from the past... there is no point in doing it if you're not going to recreate its sound. The injection of a digital interface into a vintage analog synthesizer is going to change its sound... there are no two ways around it. Yes, there will be people who say they can't tell the difference. Yes, there will be people who say they'd trade the tone for the convenience, and there will always be those who would rather just weirdly have the thing be nothing like what it was and be set up to suit their EDM production needs. But this thing is a REPRODUCTION... changing the functionality for convenience, even if it doesn't change the sound very much at all, makes the thing pointless. They might as well just design a different analog synthesizer.
This is a great post.

As an aside, I always cringe when people play the "you can't / won't tell the difference," or "in a mix no one can tell" card in this type of situation. It's a cop out. If there's a difference, there's a difference, and it's not the place of someone who gives those types of glib responses to question an individual's reasons for caring about the difference, or to impose their own standard of what is "good enough" for them as though it's universal. Beyond that, how do they know you can't tell anyway?
This looks like a psychotropic reaction. No wonder it's so popular...

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Re: Behringer discussing making ARP Odyssey now

Post by calaverasgrande » Thu Jan 08, 2015 11:07 pm

ninja6485 wrote: As an aside, I always cringe when people play the "you can't / won't tell the difference," or "in a mix no one can tell" card in this type of situation. It's a cop out. If there's a difference, there's a difference, and it's not the place of someone who gives those types of glib responses to question an individual's reasons for caring about the difference, or to impose their own standard of what is "good enough" for them as though it's universal. Beyond that, how do they know you can't tell anyway?
It doesn't matter whether folks can tell a difference or not. It matter whether they will be able to sell them profitably.
If patch saving ability moves more units than authenticity, than that will win (in B's case for sure).
If Soniclabs or some other site does a demo against a real Arp Oddysey and it shows up flat footed to the contest in terms of sound, expect a lot of potential buyers (dare I say over 40 buyers) to keep wallets closed.
I guess it boils down to whether the biggest market is synth purists or people who just want a powerful tool but aren't picky.

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Re: Behringer discussing making ARP Odyssey now

Post by ninja6485 » Thu Jan 08, 2015 11:55 pm

calaverasgrande wrote:
ninja6485 wrote: As an aside, I always cringe when people play the "you can't / won't tell the difference," or "in a mix no one can tell" card in this type of situation. It's a cop out. If there's a difference, there's a difference, and it's not the place of someone who gives those types of glib responses to question an individual's reasons for caring about the difference, or to impose their own standard of what is "good enough" for them as though it's universal. Beyond that, how do they know you can't tell anyway?
It doesn't matter whether folks can tell a difference or not. It matter whether they will be able to sell them profitably.
If patch saving ability moves more units than authenticity, than that will win (in B's case for sure).
If Soniclabs or some other site does a demo against a real Arp Oddysey and it shows up flat footed to the contest in terms of sound, expect a lot of potential buyers (dare I say over 40 buyers) to keep wallets closed.
I guess it boils down to whether the biggest market is synth purists or people who just want a powerful tool but aren't picky.

I've got a strict "DIY gear only" new years resolution. Both as a way of budgeting and limiting gear expenditures, and because I am launching a site this year.
Right. I just mean in forum discussions! :)
This looks like a psychotropic reaction. No wonder it's so popular...

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Re: Behringer discussing making ARP Odyssey now

Post by ranzee » Fri Jan 09, 2015 12:02 am

Automatic Gainsay wrote: In a traditional analog synth, the sound is literally passing through the pot itself. The structure and function of the pot plays a role in what happens to the voltage going through it. The knob plays a role in the sound in addition to how it is used. The knob is PART OF THE ANALOG SIGNAL PATH. Let's face it: this whole "analog signal path" is a thing marketers say to inspire the ignorant and calm the purists... but it is a different thing than "analog synthesizer" or "discrete synthesizer," especially.

What it comes down to is "whether the often very subtle differences actually matter." For many, they don't... and that's fine. But if you're going to recreate a synth from the past... there is no point in doing it if you're not going to recreate its sound. The injection of a digital interface into a vintage analog synthesizer is going to change its sound... there are no two ways around it. Yes, there will be people who say they can't tell the difference. Yes, there will be people who say they'd trade the tone for the convenience, and there will always be those who would rather just weirdly have the thing be nothing like what it was and be set up to suit their EDM production needs. But this thing is a REPRODUCTION... changing the functionality for convenience, even if it doesn't change the sound very much at all, makes the thing pointless. They might as well just design a different analog synthesizer.
I'm no electronic expert, but I'm fairly certain today they have potentiometers (or equivalent) that allow analog circuit and can be read digital without combining the two. I recall Dave Smith saying that he used something like this in the Prophet 08.

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Re: Behringer discussing making ARP Odyssey now

Post by commodorejohn » Fri Jan 09, 2015 12:14 am

Any potentiometer should be able to have its output split so that it can both control an element directly and also be read by an ADC; however, the question is how you juggle digital control of the element by the patch memory and analog control of the element by the pot. Do you just stick to digital control when it's not in a specific "manual" mode? That's kind of lame. Do you keep it on digital control when a patch is recalled until the pot changes by some minimal value? That kind of impairs the smooth operation.
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Re: Behringer discussing making ARP Odyssey now

Post by ranzee » Fri Jan 09, 2015 12:41 am

Yeah, I've seen it done a few different ways (with the gear I own):

1) The Moog SP/LP way - I think they use encoders, but the patch recall controls the pot position, the pots themselves change their data position from the patch recall position. This is a little freaky to deal with tbh, as the pot then has a skewed position.
2) The Novation Bass Station II way - there is a value > < and a "dot" lights up when the pot position reaches the patch recall's original/stored value.
3) Motorised pots - which restore the position of the pots via servo motor physically resetting to the stored position

Personally I like the second way.

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Re: Behringer discussing making ARP Odyssey now

Post by genshi » Fri Jan 09, 2015 1:33 am

Don't know if this has been covered already but, Uli Behringer already stated that they are at least a year off from showing any sort of synth. So...

Also, I'm sorry I couldn't find the Korg ARP Odyssey thread for some reason, but I am surprised this isn't being reported by anyone other than myself (on another slutty forum) but, for those of you waiting on some information regarding the Korg ARP Odyssey... I have a source at a little indie synth shop who confirmed what is also being shown on the JRRshop website - that Korg sent out an official email today to all the retailers with allocation numbers and this additional info:

The independent shops will get the Korg ARP Odyssey first, in the Mark III color (Black and Orange) priced at $999, full length keys but narrower(?) and then Guitar Center and their partners will get their Odyssey but in the Mark II colors (Black and Gold) and then Sweetwater which will have the Mark I color (White Faced.)

Also of note: 3-way switch to choose between the three different filters, a "Drive" switch (new to an Odyssey) MIDI and CV (not sure if these are in, out or both.)

All of this will be shown at NAMM. Release dates still pending, but my source says, the indie shops should get the black and orange Odyssey reissue within 30 days of NAMM.

EDIT: New image of the Korg ARP Odyssey - Image
Last edited by genshi on Fri Jan 09, 2015 1:38 am, edited 3 times in total.

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Re: Behringer discussing making ARP Odyssey now

Post by commodorejohn » Fri Jan 09, 2015 1:36 am

That's a really odd release scheme. Not that I'm particularly bothered what color mine winds up being, but it's just kind of weird...

$999 is pricier than I'd hoped for, but then again, it's still a h**l of a lot cheaper than an original.
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Re: Behringer discussing making ARP Odyssey now

Post by sourwookie » Fri Jan 09, 2015 1:50 am

If $999 is the list price, then the MAP or "street price" will be around $699.

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$999 is not a bad price.

Post by calaverasgrande » Fri Jan 09, 2015 2:16 am

seriously?
I'd expected it to be much higher than that.
Just look at the number of sliders and switches, it's a much more involved offering than the MS20, mini or otherwise.
c**p, now I am fretting over how they made it so cheap?

Also, I wish I hadn't read that about the different color schemes.
Black and orange is what I'd typically go for but that Sweetwater version would look niiiice.
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Re: Behringer discussing making ARP Odyssey now

Post by megamanx » Fri Jan 09, 2015 4:00 am

I would get the white one too...

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Re: Behringer discussing making ARP Odyssey now

Post by Hybrid88 » Fri Jan 09, 2015 4:40 am

hmm shouldn't that info really be in the Korg thread? This is all starting to merge into one big pile of confusion. :?

Someone please resurrect the Korg thread so we can stop stroking Behringers ridiculous ego...

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Re: Behringer discussing making ARP Odyssey now

Post by Aaron2 » Fri Jan 09, 2015 4:56 am

Automatic Gainsay wrote:But this thing is a REPRODUCTION... changing the functionality for convenience, even if it doesn't change the sound very much at all, makes the thing pointless. They might as well just design a different analog synthesizer.
You're being too literal. It seems to me that "reproduction" synths like the Korg MS-20 mini are intended to be as faithful to the original as possible, given a lot of limitations -- not least the availability of parts and the need to make a profit. But they're not necessarily meant to be clones. There's a difference between a clone (an exact replica, using precisely the same components, materials, manufacturing techniques, and circuitry as the original) and a reproduction (which, in my view, means something very close to the original but not precisely the same down to every last, niggling detail).

I'm not sure it's even possible to profitably clone an ARP Odyssey in 2015, and I don't think that Korg or Behringer will ever try to do so. Don't forget: these companies exist to make money, not merely to satisfy synth fetishists like many of us.

And frankly, since it's not possible to go back in time and play an ARP Odyssey, and experience the sound of a brand-new one, a reproduction (as I define it) will do just fine. I won't know the difference anyway, and I doubt many will. Even the most pristine 35-year-old examples out there undoubtedly sound different than they did when they were new. Time changes electronic components, and thus the sound of the instrument. That's an undeniable fact.

If anyone here really thinks they can compare the sound of a new machine to the memory of one they played 35 years ago, and make any meaningful judgment calls about the differences, they're kidding themselves.

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