Behringer discussing making ARP Odyssey now

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Re: Behringer discussing making ARP Odyssey now

Post by ranzee » Thu Jan 08, 2015 2:00 am

Automatic Gainsay wrote:I'd hate to be so cliché as to be the one to point this out:

But there is no way you can keep anything close to the original Odyssey design and also have presets or patch memory. You are going to need a nice thick layer of digital between the controls and the functionality to do that. And that will make it sound different. Of course, many of you will say "WELL, IT'LL BE CLOSE ENOUGH." But it won't.

Also: is there any indication other than Behringer saying "what if we made one of these" that they're going to make one those? I took the whole thing as attention-getting. There's no way they could mount that thing fast enough to beat Korg, and you can have all the patch memory you want, but people who are actually looking for the sound of the Odyssey are going to buy Korg to begin with. And if you care more about patch memory than similarity of sound, you have no business wasting your money on an Odyssey remake.

As for the keys... we need new nomenclature. "Mini-keys" are the things found on Casios and the MicroKorg. The keys found on the MS-20 Mini are proportionately-smaller normal keys that are easier to play with full-sized key technique.
I read that they weren't doing an exact replica, instead modernising a famous synth bringing functionality of today to the table.

if we were to take this argument throughout the gambit of analogue synth with patch memory/digital controls, that would mean the memory moog, elka synthex etc would suck.

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Re: Behringer discussing making ARP Odyssey now

Post by calaverasgrande » Thu Jan 08, 2015 2:21 am

compare the SEM to the Matrix 1000
nuff said.
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Re: Behringer discussing making ARP Odyssey now

Post by commodorejohn » Thu Jan 08, 2015 2:41 am

That's not exactly a representative comparison - the SEM is a custom discrete-component design while the Matrix-6/1000 is based on a couple of later CEM chips. It's a much bigger difference than just whether there's a DAC/ADC in between the knobs and the CVs.
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Re: Behringer discussing making ARP Odyssey now

Post by Automatic Gainsay » Thu Jan 08, 2015 3:23 am

ranzee wrote:I read that they weren't doing an exact replica, instead modernising a famous synth bringing functionality of today to the table.

if we were to take this argument throughout the gambit of analogue synth with patch memory/digital controls, that would mean the memory moog, elka synthex etc would suck.
You read that about Korg, or Behringer?
I can tell you that that was not Korg's original intent.
Modernizing a vintage synth is stupid. There is no point in it. If you want modern functionality and sound, there are plenty of synths to choose from. Bringing back a vintage synth only has a point if you're going to bring it back as itself. You'll note that Korg reproduced the original MS-20.
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Re: Behringer discussing making ARP Odyssey now

Post by Hybrid88 » Thu Jan 08, 2015 6:59 am

Automatic Gainsay wrote:
ranzee wrote:I read that they weren't doing an exact replica, instead modernising a famous synth bringing functionality of today to the table.

if we were to take this argument throughout the gambit of analogue synth with patch memory/digital controls, that would mean the memory moog, elka synthex etc would suck.
You read that about Korg, or Behringer?
I can tell you that that was not Korg's original intent.
Modernizing a vintage synth is stupid. There is no point in it. If you want modern functionality and sound, there are plenty of synths to choose from. Bringing back a vintage synth only has a point if you're going to bring it back as itself. You'll note that Korg reproduced the original MS-20.
Yes with SMD components, both filter types and USB Midi, which kinda disproves your point. There are some things you'd be crazy not to update with a reissue.

Also I can live without seeing the sticky, dust-eating sliders, dodgy tantalum caps and maintenance intensive keyboard of the original reissued for the modern generation ;)

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Re: Behringer discussing making ARP Odyssey now

Post by calaverasgrande » Thu Jan 08, 2015 7:32 am

linear pots have gotten much better over the past few decades. But I do have to agree that is one of the things I most detest about vintage synths. A pot can usually be retrofitted. But a linear pot of the exact same dimensions AND specs? Not so easy to find in a lot of cases IME.
They'd be crazy to reproduce the keybed. It would needlessly add to the cost.

still, so far B has only given us what ifs, and Korg vaporware.
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Re: Behringer discussing making ARP Odyssey now

Post by Broadwave » Thu Jan 08, 2015 9:14 am

Automatic Gainsay wrote:You are going to need a nice thick layer of digital between the controls and the functionality to do that. And that will make it sound different. Of course, many of you will say "WELL, IT'LL BE CLOSE ENOUGH." But it won't.
I have nothing but respect for you, but for the first time ever, I'm afraid I'm going to have to disagree ;) There's no reason why programmability should interfere with the analogue path.

The CV gets read from whatever parameter is being stored, put through an A/D converter for CV value storage, and read via D/A directly back to the parameter CV/Switch etc - It shouldn't affect the "sound" in any way.
Automatic Gainsay wrote:Bringing back a vintage synth only has a point if you're going to bring it back as itself.
Two points - You can add price into the equation. Personally I wouldn't pay 2.5k for a second hand 40 year old (and in my experience of working with them) knackered synth. Most ARPs that come through my workshop have been previously "fixed" over that time using inappropriate components, which really affected the original sound.
calaverasgrande wrote:A pot can usually be retrofitted. But a linear pot of the exact same dimensions AND specs? Not so easy to find in a lot of cases IME
I fitted the CMS Lumina upgrade to my Odyssey (CMS uses standard Bournes 45mm LED sliders - as I did on my 2600 clone). I didn't notice anything different about them, other than they felt far sturdier than the original CTS ones.
calaverasgrande wrote:...and Korg vaporware.
Korg have officially announced it and showing theirs at NAMM. As for Behringer, we'll just have to wait and see.

But regardless of anything, the proof will be when we can all make a direct comparison, but as I've said previously you'll have to be aware that the original is now 40 years old, components age and wear out, so obviously it will sound different from a brand new re-release... Quite honestly, most people won't care - even me!

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Re: Behringer discussing making ARP Odyssey now

Post by Hybrid88 » Thu Jan 08, 2015 9:58 am

Broadwave wrote:
Automatic Gainsay wrote:You are going to need a nice thick layer of digital between the controls and the functionality to do that. And that will make it sound different. Of course, many of you will say "WELL, IT'LL BE CLOSE ENOUGH." But it won't.
I have nothing but respect for you, but for the first time ever, I'm afraid I'm going to have to disagree ;) There's no reason why programmability should interfere with the analogue path.

The CV gets read from whatever parameter is being stored, put through an A/D converter for CV value storage, and read via D/A directly back to the parameter CV/Switch etc - It shouldn't affect the "sound" in any way.
That totally depends on the scanning resolution for the parameters, for example try tweaking a basic filter sweep on the Korg Volca Bass and Volca Keys. The bass's response is smooth and as it should be, but the Keys is steppy as all h**l, à la 90's VA.

That makes a big difference in how you tweak a synth and interact with it :geek:

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Re: Behringer discussing making ARP Odyssey now

Post by Broadwave » Thu Jan 08, 2015 10:28 am

Hybrid88 wrote:That totally depends on the scanning resolution for the parameters, for example try tweaking a basic filter sweep on the Korg Volca Bass and Volca Keys. The bass's response is smooth and as it should be, but the Keys is steppy as all h**l, à la 90's VA.
I absolutely agree with you, which is why we'll have to wait and see - I'm not a great "live" tweaker as I only have two hands, and they're usually both busy, and if I do change a parameter it's usually just a minor adjustment ;)

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Re: Behringer discussing making ARP Odyssey now

Post by ranzee » Thu Jan 08, 2015 11:11 am

Automatic Gainsay wrote:
ranzee wrote:I read that they weren't doing an exact replica, instead modernising a famous synth bringing functionality of today to the table.

if we were to take this argument throughout the gambit of analogue synth with patch memory/digital controls, that would mean the memory moog, elka synthex etc would suck.
You read that about Korg, or Behringer?
I can tell you that that was not Korg's original intent.
Modernizing a vintage synth is stupid. There is no point in it. If you want modern functionality and sound, there are plenty of synths to choose from. Bringing back a vintage synth only has a point if you're going to bring it back as itself. You'll note that Korg reproduced the original MS-20.
With respect,

Behringer thread, so Behringer ... but before we split hairs on this ... lets get something clear - there isn't any official release from them - it is all just speculation, sounding out what the masses want.

I'm not sure I agree with your point about modernising a vintage synth is stupid. Perhaps they've got it wrong - perhaps the analog synths that were made before the digital revolution were more a player's instrument. Perhaps they are appeasing the market. Who knows? All I know is what I like, and I like the idea of not paying some ridiculous 2nd-hand price for something. I certainly enjoy them.

The Korg one is a bit of a let-down with the mini keyboard tbh, but I'm definitely not the first to say this. Something that can easily be rectified by plugging in a MIDI keyboard I guess.

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Re: Behringer discussing making ARP Odyssey now

Post by Broadwave » Thu Jan 08, 2015 11:51 am

ranzee wrote:The Korg one is a bit of a let-down with the mini keyboard tbh, but I'm definitely not the first to say this. Something that can easily be rectified by plugging in a MIDI keyboard I guess.
Korg needs to release it with full sized keys.

There's something disquieting about playing, what would effectively be a "Synth Module" via a separate MIDI keyboard.

Myself and Dave Formula (Magazine/Visage) both owned a Creamware Prodyssey (which in all honesty was a dog). Dave also mentioned the "mental disconnect" while using the Proddy via an external keyboard, which Is why I ended up building a very rushed custom job for him, incorporating the Proddy into a case with a 4 oct keyboard - It just felt better with everything in one unit.

Hey, I did say it was a rush job ;)

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Re: Behringer discussing making ARP Odyssey now

Post by ranzee » Thu Jan 08, 2015 12:38 pm

That is awesome. Korg are pretty good at doing module synth, I own one, the M3, and the Radias is something that I've wanted to try out.

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Re: Behringer discussing making ARP Odyssey now

Post by Jabberwalky » Thu Jan 08, 2015 3:22 pm

That's really cool Andy! Kinda reminds me of the Arp Solus with the heavy duty case and all.

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Re: Behringer discussing making ARP Odyssey now

Post by calaverasgrande » Thu Jan 08, 2015 4:40 pm

there are different ways of making analog circuits patch-recallable.
The more expensive ways of doing it, like on some Big Briar/Moog synths, doesnt sound bad at all. The digital control is essentially outside the sound generating circuits, but is able to control the pots and such as on the Phatty.
The cheaper ways of doing it, by using DCOs and other components that are part of the sound generation circuit, does usually sound worse, or at least different.

I'll never write off any synth architecture. They are all synthetic. That is what I like. When I had a Poly 800 I embraced the stair stepping and 1 filter for all voices. I made patches for those idiosyncrasies.
I'm just pointing out that if Behringer is making a patch recalable Arp, they would take the cheaper route. Putting modern preference for patch recall above authenticity. So I'd expect digitially controlled oscs, filters and amps, instead of digitally controlled pots on analog oscs, filters and amps. So not a product I expect to pass any blind tests.
And it does bear re-iterating, this could just be marketing dept dis-info.
Their whole statement was basically 'what if we', not 'we are going to'.
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Re: Behringer discussing making ARP Odyssey now

Post by ninja6485 » Thu Jan 08, 2015 7:08 pm

Ok, so has everyone who wanted to say "behringer hasn't made an official release yet, it's only speculation" said it already so we can move on?
ranzee wrote:if we were to take this argument throughout the gambit of analogue synth with patch memory/digital controls, that would mean the memory moog, elka synthex etc would suck.
It wouldn't mean they suck, because none of them are replicas in the same way that the new Odysseys are replicas. The argument AG is putting forward is that that replicating the odyssey with new features taints it. If you're saying that behringer is trying to create something new, that's not what AG is arguing. Taking your argument to those conclusions might mean the memory moog and synthex would suck, not AG's.
calaverasgrande wrote:I'm just pointing out that if Behringer is making a patch recalable Arp, they would take the cheaper route. Putting modern preference for patch recall above authenticity.
:lol: Yup, pretty much. It might be really cool, and it might actually kick more a*s than a better remake of the original, especially if it's dirt cheap and fails in a musical way.

Would it really kill korg to just make an original, normal sized, relatively full featured analog synth? If they could do it 40 years ago, and they can reproduce and sell what they designed 40 years ago, they can come up with a new design in a similar vein that won't have all of the stupid baggage of trying to compete with a dinosaur.
This looks like a psychotropic reaction. No wonder it's so popular...

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