Internal patches for Casio CZ3000 needed

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Internal patches for Casio CZ3000 needed

Postby mickrick » Fri Mar 13, 2015 6:58 pm

A friend let the internal battery in his cz3000 expire and now all of the internal patches have been wiped. Does anyone have a sysex dump of this synth he could flash to it? He has a working Alesis Datadisk Mk II which he hopes could be used to send the dump to the synth.
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Re: Internal patches for Casio CZ3000 needed

Postby rsaintjohn » Sat Mar 14, 2015 8:48 pm

According to the 5000 manual, when the connector from the batteries is disconnected, all the sound data in the memory bank is cleared. When this happens, re-initialize the unit with the following procedure:

1. Turn the Power Switch off and press the INITIALIZE button.
2. Turn the power switch on, and the display indicates: SYSTEM ALL INITIALIZE (Y/N)?
3. While pushing the INITIALIZE button, press YES button on the data entry section of the panel.
All the Memory Bank Data are initialized, then the display shows: SYSTEM INITIALIZED"

The internal preset patches should be reloaded and back.


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Re: Internal patches for Casio CZ3000 needed

Postby madtheory » Sat Mar 14, 2015 9:49 pm

No, re-initialising won't restore the patches, it'll just reset tuning and other basic stuff. The first 32 patches are in ROM and can't be wiped, those are the factory presets. The second 32 are user RAM, and are gone forever in your friend's case I'm afraid. Hopefully your friend didn't lose any originals!
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Re: Internal patches for Casio CZ3000 needed

Postby rsaintjohn » Sun Mar 15, 2015 8:07 pm

Right, sorry for any confusion. The CZ-3000 manual says "When the connector from the batteries is disconnected, all the sound data in the memory bank are cleared," and I thought that that meant that even the 32 default Presets were cleared. And mickrick said "all of the internal patches have been wiped", and I've seen a user on YouTube saying the same thing.

That it would or could seemed inexplicable to me, but I don't have a 3000 and although I just bought a 5000, I haven't dug into it yet.


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Re: Internal patches for Casio CZ3000 needed

Postby desmond » Mon Mar 16, 2015 1:05 am

rsaintjohn wrote:And mickrick said "all of the internal patches have been wiped", and I've seen a user on YouTube saying the same thing.

That it would or could seemed inexplicable to me, but I don't have a 3000 and although I just bought a 5000, I haven't dug into it yet.


The CZ series have three banks of patches:

"Preset" - preset patches stored in ROM
"Internal" - user patches stored in RAM (backed up up by battery)
"Cartridge" - patches stored on a plugged-in RAM cartridge

So when he says the "internal" patches are gone, he means the user-overwritable patches.
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Re: Internal patches for Casio CZ3000 needed

Postby rsaintjohn » Mon Mar 16, 2015 2:41 am

Right, I get that. But here's my question: why does the CZ-5000 Service Manual (not the User Manual) have this in it (and I haven't seen the 3000 Service Manual, but I suspect they're largely the same):

"When the connector from the batteries is disconnected, all the sound data in the memory bank are cleared. When this happens initialize the unit by the following procedure:
1. Turn the Power Switch off and press the INITIALIZE button.
2. Turn the power switch on, and the display indicates: SYSTEM ALL INITIALIZE (Y/N)?
3. While pushing the INITIALIZE button, press YES button on the data entry section of the panel.
All the Memory Bank Data are initialized, then the display shows: SYSTEM INITIALIZED !! "


Image


What is "sound data in the memory bank"? Is it the 32 Preset Bank patches stored in ROM? You guys are indicating that they can't be lost. Is it the Internal 32 Memory Bank user patches? Everyone is saying that they can't be recovered.

So what is the System Initialize for? Because the way I read it, it was a way of reloading the Preset Bank, like a factory reset, in case of disaster. Like the "P" button underneath the 101 and 1000. And why is this Initialize procedure included in the Service Manual, but not the User Operations Manual?

I wish mickrick would pop-in and clarify. I suppose it could just be a dead NEC uPD933 voice chip.

ADDED: Reading it over again, I suppose it could just be similar to reformatting the Memory Bank ; otherwise, in the dead battery situation, perhaps you can't write to those 32 slots without the re-initialization. And it doesn't say, "Do this to bring them back," just "do this". :lol:


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Re: Internal patches for Casio CZ3000 needed

Postby desmond » Mon Mar 16, 2015 1:29 pm

rsaintjohn wrote:What is "sound data in the memory bank"? Is it the 32 Preset Bank patches stored in ROM? You guys are indicating that they can't be lost. Is it the Internal 32 Memory Bank user patches? Everyone is saying that they can't be recovered.


The Internal (user memory) bank.

Presets are in ROM and cannot be lost. But there are factory loaded presets in the internal ram (or you own patches if you've changed them) which will be lost if there is no battery backup.

rsaintjohn wrote:So what is the System Initialize for? Because the way I read it, it was a way of reloading the Preset Bank, like a factory reset, in case of disaster.


Initialisation is usually a way of cleaning out the memory - if the batteries go, usually what's left in the memory is garbage data, so you initialise to clear it out (essentially writing clean, initialised patch data to memory), then reload the factory Internal bank to get the full set of factory sounds back. This is what happens in the CZ101, for example.
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Re: Internal patches for Casio CZ3000 needed

Postby rsaintjohn » Mon Mar 16, 2015 8:04 pm

But there are factory loaded presets in the internal ram..


Out of curiosity, what were these presets? Were they just a duplication of the Preset Bank, or 32 completely different patches? I don't think the doc I have details what was in the Memory Bank by default.


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Re: Internal patches for Casio CZ3000 needed

Postby CZ Rider » Mon Mar 16, 2015 10:56 pm

I thought it just duplicated the 32 ROM patches into the 32 RAM slots when initalized on the CZ 3000/5000. The memory on those models is strange as the cart access was by dumping/saving the whole cart to the C or D bank. Unlike the CZ-101/1000 and CZ-1 that could directly access the cart as additional RAM memory slots.
The battery backup on the CZ-3000/5000 was three AA batteries located on the underside of the unit. Usually the battery door is missing.
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Re: Internal patches for Casio CZ3000 needed

Postby desmond » Tue Mar 17, 2015 2:12 am

rsaintjohn wrote:
But there are factory loaded presets in the internal ram..


Out of curiosity, what were these presets? Were they just a duplication of the Preset Bank, or 32 completely different patches? I don't think the doc I have details what was in the Memory Bank by default.


Different patches. They are all easily available online with some googling...
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Re: Internal patches for Casio CZ3000 needed

Postby desmond » Tue Mar 17, 2015 2:13 am

CZ Rider wrote:I thought it just duplicated the 32 ROM patches into the 32 RAM slots when initalized on the CZ 3000/5000.


Ah yeah, you might be right on that...
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Re: Internal patches for Casio CZ3000 needed

Postby madtheory » Tue Mar 17, 2015 12:51 pm

Yes they are duplicates of the 32 in the ROM. Those cannot be changed, unless you have your own IC manufacturing facility and Casio's original mask. In other words, no one has ever changed them.

As CZ Rider says, the memory is strangely implemented on the CZ3000 and CZ5000. I would say annoying actually. You can't use a memory cartridge for expansion.

I wouldn't take a Japanese service manual too literally. It's written by engineers who rely more on diagrams and assumed prior knowledge than good grammar or clear language. This happens with native and non-native speakers in engineering! :)
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Re: Internal patches for Casio CZ3000 needed

Postby rsaintjohn » Tue Mar 17, 2015 3:40 pm

madtheory wrote:I wouldn't take a Japanese service manual too literally. It's written by engineers who rely more on diagrams and assumed prior knowledge than good grammar or clear language. This happens with native and non-native speakers in engineering! :)


"Faily Tail" :D


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Re: Internal patches for Casio CZ3000 needed

Postby rsaintjohn » Wed Mar 18, 2015 8:22 pm

Just an FYI for anyone interested. My 5000 arrived today. On startup it had the standard 32 Preset Bank patches from ROM. No tones were in the Memory Bank RAM. I re-powered it up using the instructions above (power on while holding the Initialize button, and while still holding initialize press the Yes button). With that, the Memory Bank patches were reloaded and, yes, they're just copies of the 32 Preset Bank patches, but without names, just labels (Memory A-1, A-2, etc.). So basically, it just reloads the Factory Defaults into Memory to (I suppose) use as starting points in modifying your custom tones.


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