Trouble with CZ-1000 doing sysex with pc/mac (resolved)

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part12studios
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Trouble with CZ-1000 doing sysex with pc/mac (resolved)

Post by part12studios » Mon Mar 28, 2016 8:56 pm

So I have a CZ-1000 and i've used the CZ Touch app with it which works great. I know the CZ-1000 is able to send midi notes to the macbook i'm connected too and i know that i can send midi notes to it from MIDI Quest and other programs..

but when I use MQ11 with it to do a "get" so I can pull all the sounds nothing happens.. i've used it on may other synths this one just seems to be stubborn or the software is just not firing off right.. the fact that CZ Touch works perfectly pushing random patches or grabbing patches from the unit makes me think the issue is with MQ11 which has been a great product for my other devices..

Just wondering if there is some weird trick.. program change is on..

Thanks,
Caleb
Last edited by part12studios on Sat Jan 21, 2017 2:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Anyone have trouble with CZ-1000 doing sysex with pc/mac

Post by desmond » Mon Mar 28, 2016 10:05 pm

The CZ uses a non-standard sysex format where it actually tends a non EOX terminated sysex string, waits for acknowledgement bytes, then continues.

Some MIDI interfaces may not like that. I've never had problems transferring sysex to any of my CZ's over the years, from the Atari ST onwards, but I haven't tried MQ11 with it. Are you sure the CZ is set to the correct MIDI channel?

(Obviously you need two-way MIDI communication.)

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Re: Anyone have trouble with CZ-1000 doing sysex with pc/mac

Post by part12studios » Mon Mar 28, 2016 10:10 pm

you know.. i could try another midi interface.. i am using a usb ederol in / out interface.. maybe something else will talk properly.. in the case of my ipad and cz touch i'm using an iRig midi in/out device.. so that could be the issue.. I have some other devices i could try as well to see if it's the midi interface that's the issue. I'll report back as soon as I try them out. great insight!

I am interested in finding some Amiga software that would work with it also.. as my studio's MIDI situation will be driven by bars and pipes professional.

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Re: Anyone have trouble with CZ-1000 doing sysex with pc/mac

Post by desmond » Mon Mar 28, 2016 10:26 pm

Also, if you have some MIDI monitor software, try to use that to spy on the MIDI bytes being sent and received - you'll be able to see what sysex requests are being transmitted, and whether you get replies etc. Looking at the message content can also provide clues as to what's going on.

Likely something is not getting through - either the request, or the replies...

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Re: Anyone have trouble with CZ-1000 doing sysex with pc/mac

Post by Xentager10159 » Tue Mar 29, 2016 6:35 pm

I have a similar thing going on with my CZ-5000. About a month ago I ordered a sound package from eBay that apparently had all of the instructions included with the package to transfer them onto the unit. I used a USB-to-MIDI cable, but unfortunately I have yet to get anything going. Any ideas????????

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Re: Anyone have trouble with CZ-1000 doing sysex with pc/mac

Post by part12studios » Tue Mar 29, 2016 6:59 pm

Yea this CZ-1000 is being a pain in the a*s.. i don't have any news.. i'm still hunting around for something that works.. there are so few midi options on the unit itself.. it's not like i can try much.. but the fact that it works wit CZ Touch for iOS gives me hope..

I may just have to break down and learn how to program the CZ-1000 using CZ Touch.. it will make the process much less painful.. but still, i'd love to just be able to use MIDI Quest with it.

I hooked up an Ozonic keyboard with it's in/out midi ports.. and that didn't seem to cut it with MQ11.. i also tried a couple other sysex ios apps but none of them seem to talk to the CZ either..

I know this thing can make some really unique / rich sound so I'm going to persevere.. but come on.. just work.. lol

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Re: Anyone have trouble with CZ-1000 doing sysex with pc/mac

Post by desmond » Tue Mar 29, 2016 10:42 pm

Xentager10159 wrote:I used a USB-to-MIDI cable, but unfortunately I have yet to get anything going.
These USB to MIDI cables are usually garbage, to be honest.

You need 2-way communication to transfer sounds to/from the CZ as it uses handshaking, so both the MIDI IN and MIDI OUT need to go from/to the computer respectively.

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Re: Anyone have trouble with CZ-1000 doing sysex with pc/mac

Post by desmond » Tue Mar 29, 2016 10:45 pm

part12studios wrote:I hooked up an Ozonic keyboard with it's in/out midi ports.. and that didn't seem to cut it with MQ11.. i also tried a couple other sysex ios apps but none of them seem to talk to the CZ either..
Seems weird that none work (assuming that MQ itself does, which it should do).

What's the device ID of the CZ set to in MIDIquest, and does it match the current MIDI receive channel on the CZ?

Also make sure MIDI reception is on, I can't remember if this is switchable on the CZ-101/1000, it should be under the MIDI key if you page up/down, if it' an option.

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Re: Anyone have trouble with CZ-1000 doing sysex with pc/mac

Post by part12studios » Wed Mar 30, 2016 4:55 am

Yea MQ11 has worked heavily with at least half a dozen other devices I own.. so it's been a workhorse and a godsend..

I don't know the device ID of the CZ.. I'm working with the Chadwick who is the creator of CZ Touch. He mentioned that sysex dumping requires a special message from the external device.. I'm going to try more stuff till I figure this out.

The CZ-1000 has only two MIDI options. program change enable and midi channel.. so I don't have a lot to work with on the synth side.. if this was some lame synth I probably wouldn't care but It can make some pretty slick sounds and I'd really like to load up 32 really nice unique sounds to tap into later.

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Re: Anyone have trouble with CZ-1000 doing sysex with pc/mac

Post by rsaintjohn » Wed Mar 30, 2016 6:14 am

The two PDF docs in this zip file are ancient documents, but should tell you everything you wanted to know about SysEx and MIDI on the Casio CZ line. I've got no experience with MIDI Quest, but perhaps they will help. I would think Chadwick has these as well.

ZIP File - Casio CZ SysEx and MIDI Info PDF Docs

ADDED: Found this, too, which might provide a clue. Some scrap I had saved in a text file. Note what I bolded:
How to load (receive) on the CZ from your computer to install new sounds

You need a CZ, 2 MIDI cables, a MIDI interface, a syx-Dump- or a Sequencer software (Cubase 2.0 will do it), a little experience with MIDI and some .syx-files.

First of all: your Interface worx! You know what MIDI does and does not. Second: your CZ is powered on and PROTECT on the backside is set to OFF. Both MIDI cables are connected correctly (IN -> OUT, OUT - > IN). If you have a single cable only it WILL NOT WORK. The Casios have a very serious Handshake, so both cables had to be connected - don't ask. Your dump-software is installed correctly, OMS on Mac works too (if needed), your PC "knows" theres a CZ beside him. Open the .sysEx file with the dumper (whatever it is: "Dumpster" for PC, "OMS Midi Sender" or SysEx 4.5.2 for Mac etc.). Set the CZ to "Receive Channel 1 " (not a must, but that's how it works). MIDI-button is ON. Choose the MIDI-button, choose MIDI receive (with cursors). Click dump/ send/ go or whatever in the Software. The CZ should receive .sysEx now and blink like a Disco. Finally, after max. 1 min. (depends on the volume), it's ready to play.

How to dump (send) from your Casio CZ synth to your computer to save your sounds

Made good Sounds? Want to back-up them? Ok. Set your Software to "Receive dump", push MIDI SEND on the CZ. The CZ says now "sending". It'll quit after its done saying "SEND OK" (or FAILED). Your Dumper is filled now (maybe you'll SEE the datas coming, depends on the Software). A full dump from a CZ-1 is about 32 kb, other CZs have 8 kb or 16 kb. This is normal!

Save your data, add .syx to it (if not default - even on Mac please!). Make a folder, name your Files correct (Bass_1.syx, backup.syx, don't use 123.xyz.syx) – wait 2 years and you'll end up in surprises only. If you want to mail .syx files (Mac or PC) stuff them before (zip/ sit) – they're simple txt-files (you can even open them with any text program).

Robert
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Cleveland, OH USA

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Re: Anyone have trouble with CZ-1000 doing sysex with pc/mac

Post by desmond » Wed Mar 30, 2016 11:48 am

part12studios wrote:He mentioned that sysex dumping requires a special message from the external device.. I'm going to try more stuff till I figure this out.
Well, it's just a dump request handshake. I developed a sysex adaption for SoundDiver for the CZ-101 back before the universal module could support the CZ's transmission - so I don't fairly well what the MIDI messages are.

Like I say, get a MIDI monitor and look at the messages - likely something isn't responding, and you can check the messages and the sysex spec to try and see what's going on.

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Re: Anyone have trouble with CZ-1000 doing sysex with pc/mac

Post by Sonus » Fri Apr 01, 2016 6:13 pm

part12studios wrote:Just wondering if there is some weird trick...
You could try sending patches after pressing 'GET' in Midi Quest:
If 16 CZ patches, bytes received (264 - 7) x 16 = 4112
A full bank would be (264 - 7) x 32 = 8224

Image

Thanks to RSJ for 'Casio CZ SysEx and MIDI Info PDF Docs'.

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Re: Anyone have trouble with CZ-1000 doing sysex with pc/mac

Post by part12studios » Fri Apr 01, 2016 6:18 pm

I will have to test this out this weekend. That's exciting!

Also just curious. is everyone else also seeing 0 patches for the CZ-1000 on MidiQuest's Patch Zone? seeing that the synth doesn't "just work" i suppose it's probably right.. but my favorite thing to do with MQ is help me quickly assemble great sounds on a synth without having to get bogged down learning how to program each synth..

Thanks,
Caleb

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Re: Anyone have trouble with CZ-1000 doing sysex with pc/mac

Post by solitud » Sat Jun 18, 2016 6:27 pm

I have puzzled this SysEx Librarian together which supports CZ-1000 and works in Googles Chrome browser.
MIDI Channel on the CZ has to be set to 1.

https://f0f7.net

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Re: Anyone have trouble with CZ-1000 doing sysex with pc/mac

Post by part12studios » Sat Jun 18, 2016 11:03 pm

This looks cool!

Though I have to say this URL made me nervous.. lol.. like some virus loaded website. :)

I have to pull my CZ-1000 up from the studio to check the latest MidiQuest11 CZ driver this just gave me an awesome reason to do it sooner ;)

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