Moog model D reissue

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Re: Moog model D reissue

Post by cornutt » Thu Jun 23, 2016 2:35 pm

Hybrid88 wrote:Well then by that logic it was stupid of Moog to call it a "Model D" in the first place. As far as I know a Model B and a few Model C's did make it into the wild, but I'll await AG's input on that one.
None of the Models A/B/C went into production. They did build a handful of Model C's and hand them out to some professional musicians to get feedback. Sun Ra used a Model C on one of his late-1960s albums. Not sure if any Model B's went outside of Moog. The Model A was just a collection of modules that they were using to decide what functions needed to be included.

It did used to seem a bit silly to call the Minis "Model D". But now it serves to distinguish it from the Voyager. Also there were a handful of Model E's -- the Welsh Minis produced by Alex Winter's organization.
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Re: Moog model D reissue

Post by knolan » Thu Jun 23, 2016 10:35 pm

AnalogKid wrote:
chipaudette wrote:Dude, a Sub37 VCO? No way...too much work. They got that minty new Moog 15 iPad app right? Duct tape that into a fake wooden box and say "Damn, we're done!"

Sure, they'll need a promo video featuring some guy with artisinal facial hair, but once that hard work is done, they can just sit back and let those fat benjamins start rolln' in.

At least, that's how I'd do it.
LOL :lol:

The truth is that 99.9% of music listeners in the world can't tell and don't care about any sound differences between a Minimoog soft synth versus Minimoog hardware.
But the musician knows the difference and it affects the music they produce. That will influence the listener emotively. That's the point. That's why actual musicians who play synthesizers well are so particular on this point; and why the best bands always seek the best instruments; every time. The Model D is in the company of the B3, Fender Rhodes, Fender Strat, CP80, .... The Voyager isn't.

Sure if you're a hobbiest it might not matter ( or you might not understand the difference as has been demonstrated readily through this thread) - but it does to the great musicians. It always matters when its important. That's why the unique quality of the Model D is so obvious to the greats.

But there are real, tangible differences too. Not saying a Voyager is worse than a model D - just - different. It has a different design, circuits, chassis, shape, control surface, knob materials, keybed, wheels, dimensions. They are all - different!

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Re: Moog model D reissue

Post by ninja6485 » Fri Jun 24, 2016 5:55 am

99% of music listeners have underdeveloped taste. Most of them think sampled break beats are a drum machine...
This looks like a psychotropic reaction. No wonder it's so popular...

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Re: Moog model D reissue

Post by ppg_wavecomputer » Fri Jun 24, 2016 9:14 am

ninja6485 wrote:99% of music listeners have underdeveloped taste. Most of them think sampled break beats are a drum machine...
Most of them believe the music they are listening to is actually good.

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Re: Moog model D reissue

Post by madtheory » Fri Jun 24, 2016 11:09 am

cornutt wrote:It did used to seem a bit silly to call the Minis "Model D". But now it serves to distinguish it from the Voyager.
Nah, it's still a bit silly IMO. It's only called "Moog MiniMoog Voyager" in the US. Rest of world it's simply "Moog Voyager".

US shop:
http://www.sweetwater.com/store/search. ... &Go=Search

EU shop:
http://www.thomann.de/ie/search_dir.html?bf=&sw=voyager

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Re: Moog model D reissue

Post by Weirdofromouterspace » Fri Jun 24, 2016 12:33 pm

madtheory wrote:Rest of world it's simply "Moog Voyager".

EU shop:
http://www.thomann.de/ie/search_dir.html?bf=&sw=voyager
Well, it does say "Moog MINIMOOG Voyager" in the description, just underneath the headline (not for the XL though) ;) .

SCNR :)

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Re: Moog model D reissue

Post by madtheory » Fri Jun 24, 2016 12:41 pm

Weirdofromouterspace wrote:
madtheory wrote:Rest of world it's simply "Moog Voyager".
Well, it does say "Moog MINIMOOG Voyager" in the description, just underneath the headline (not for the XL though) ;) .

SCNR :)

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Re: Moog model D reissue

Post by knolan » Sat Jun 25, 2016 1:04 pm

Dear Friends and Colleagues,

I just want to offer a public apology to madtheory, and any one else I offended, in this thread debating the Model D and similar synths. I was quite condescending towards madtheory in particular, where in fact I value his thoughts and judgements, but got a bit hot under the collar on occasional posts.

In any case, this is an unprompted, but necessary to apology to anyone I offended in my posts and especially madtheory.

Kudos to this forum and all who are members - and assure you of more objective engagement in the future.

Regards,
Kevin.

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Re: Moog model D reissue

Post by ppg_wavecomputer » Sun Jun 26, 2016 12:28 am

knolan wrote: [...] But the musician knows the difference and it affects the music they produce. That will influence the listener emotively. [...]
I don't mean to sound impolite but I hope you do not believe this, do you?

In 99% of all cases listeners might as well be tone-deaf and -- to paraphrase Frank Zappa here -- they wouldn't be able to recognize good music even if it came right up to them and bit them in their arse.

99% of all listeners are a) musically totally indifferent because b) they are no educated and discriminating listeners who have learned to separate the wheat from the chaff and c) just want to be entertained (or find a means to kill silence or boredom with... or that noise inside their heads).

How would they be able to tell the difference between a 1978 Mini Moog and a 2016 Mini Moog, let alone feel the emotional Impact the choice of instruments had on the performer?

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Re: Moog model D reissue

Post by knolan » Sun Jun 26, 2016 1:17 am

I challenge you to think about this: standards are very high - still today. Society does not accept low quality. Think about it. Think about the quality needed for an average film soundtrack. Or, consider the quality of songs over the ages from rock to reggie to jazz to dance music that have come to be known and loved by large swathes of society - it's (almost) always music producers by excellent writers, musicians and producers.

I think your hugely underestimating the sophistication and expectation of your average listener! And of course playing on better instruments makes the whole experience, from performance to listening, better.


I witnessed that in an amazing way at a classical concert two years ago. Nicola Benedetti was playing a violin concerto and she has a very expensive violin (I believe a Stradivarius) and during an Allegro movement one of the strings broke on her violin. In the most amazing move I've ever witnessed, she turned to the lead violinist of our (Ireland's) National Symphony Orchestra and threw her violin to the lead violinist while simultaneously the lead violinist threw her violin to Nicola Benedetti; and without missing a beat, she picked up and blasted on with her virtuoso playing.

But the amazing thing was - the sound from the lead violinist's violin was instantaneously and blatantly obviously FAR poorer in strength and quality of tone. I'm not splitting hairs here - it was staggeringly obvious. I actually couldn't believe the difference - I know nothing about violins - but this was extraordinary. And you could see that Ms. Benedetti was having to work far harder to get a descent virtuoso tone out of the instrument.

It's the most extraordinary example I have ever come across that revealed how much better one instrument can be than another. Violinist virtuoso's need the best violins, and we're used to that sound on albums and at concerts.

I accept there's a huge amount of subjectivity in this too - but - your average listener is used to extraordinary quality, has a discerning ear (as Carl Sagan said once - an average brain can replay a symphony in their head) - while there are so many amazing players, composers, producers - and then instruments from the CS80 to the Stradavarius - that I for one firmly believe that with music, the cream rises to the top - still - today!

You may not like the music - but that doesn't make it rubbish.

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Re: Moog model D reissue

Post by commodorejohn » Sun Jun 26, 2016 8:02 am

knolan wrote:Think about the quality needed for an average film soundtrack.
Considering that 90% of all modern film soundtracks are nothing but generic Zimmeroid orchestral hammering and obvious abstract "feel this particular emotion at this point!" cues, this may be a poor example.
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Re: Moog model D reissue

Post by Soul_Processor » Sun Jun 26, 2016 9:22 am

Society does not accept low quality
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Re: Moog model D reissue

Post by ppg_wavecomputer » Sun Jun 26, 2016 10:52 am

knolan wrote: [...] Society does not accept low quality. Think about it. Think about the quality needed for an average film soundtrack. [...]
Again, I don't mean to sound offensive but... what world do you live in?

"Average" and "quality" are terms which exclude each other.

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Re: Moog model D reissue

Post by knolan » Sun Jun 26, 2016 1:07 pm

OK - accept this is subjective - but in general, high quality is the name of the game. A generalised comment about Zimmer like scores is not a good enough response. Give me an example of a block buster movie that had a poor quality score. Even zimmer-like scores, in the the best films, take a huge amount of talent. I know this first hand - I've done the UCLA Film Scoring programme, and have many film composer friends. I've managed to pull in documentary work in Ireland, and that's it. I have friends with extrordinary talent lining the queues for Hollywood movies - even the ones you're knockind are either done by exquisite musicians, or musicians with profile (like Daft Punk for Tron but where they hires an army of ghost writers and orchestrators). You're hugely underestimating the quality needed - and expected.

Try it!


And this is what I'm saying - it's easy to be a critic and knock it - but try it - try to pull in even a for straight to DVD movie requiring an Epic score and see how far you get with your demos. If you have managed to do it - you're good- very good!! The standards ARE high. you may think the music is tripe from a cultural / musical stand point - but from an emotive stand point, these scores are more sophisticate than you think; and the demands of successful producers and directors are bloody high - I assure you.

Take the Cosmos series aired in the past few years in the states. The composer - Alan Silvestry and his orchestrator - none other than Conrad Pope (used exclusively by John Williams) - and I had the pleasure of being trained and mentored by him on several occasions. At a seminar last year when asked what film score one should analyse his answer was: the score to Wall-i. IMDB Conrad Pope to see his credit list as orchestrator and composer to see the quality I'm talking about. Why did the best orchestrator in Hollywood today recommend that film score? Figure that out and you'll know what I'm talking about.

The standard of "bog-standard" media music is high - VERY high. It may not be a culturally significant piece of music; but that's a different debate.


Give us an example from a successful film, game or hit / album - and lets see what you're calling low standard so we can see if we're debating across purposes

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Re: Moog model D reissue

Post by desmond » Sun Jun 26, 2016 2:44 pm

knolan wrote:Society does not accept low quality.
That's not true as a generalisation - for instance, society *often* picks convenience over quality - this is why mp3's have been so successfull, for example.
knolan wrote:I think your hugely underestimating the sophistication and expectation of your average listener!
Maybe. I also thinkyou may be over-estimating it! ;)
knolan wrote:And of course playing on better instruments makes the whole experience, from performance to listening, better.
It *certainly* makes *playing* it better, but I'm not convinced the average listener cares of the recording quality of (say) the acoustic guitar track, as long as they like the song and the performance...
knolan wrote:But the amazing thing was - the sound from the lead violinist's violin was instantaneously and blatantly obviously FAR poorer in strength and quality of tone.
Sure. And to you, an educated, informed and experienced listener, I'm sure the effect was dramatic. And maybe that's a performance that was also filled with educated and informed listeners. But I'd be interested what the results would be if you polled the audience who witnessed it about the event - my *guess* was they would talk about the incident, and the amazing recovery, but few would comment on the difference in tone between the violins.
knolan wrote:your average listener is used to extraordinary quality, has a discerning ear
I don't really think the average listener is regularly listing to music performed expertly on Stradivarius' - I think the average listener is more likely listening to the Nolan Sisters on FM radio in a garage somewhere, but our understanding of what constitutes *average* may differ widly! ;)
knolan wrote:You may not like the music - but that doesn't make it rubbish.
Of course, but I don't think anyone's saying that...
knolan wrote:OK - accept this is subjective - but in general, high quality is the name of the game. A generalised comment about Zimmer like scores is not a good enough response. Give me an example of a block buster movie that had a poor quality score.
Top end scores are demanding - top end of *anything* is demanding. But not everything is top end. To think of just one example from the top of my head, Buffy the Vampire Slayer movie was largely scored by holding one finger down on the Pete Schwartz's "Ski Jam" preset on the Wavestation. Not that all scores are this dumb, of course! But yes, film scoring is not simple or trivial by any means.
knolan wrote:The standard of "bog-standard" media music is high - VERY high. It may not be a culturally significant piece of music; but that's a different debate.
Yes, I think by and large, these days the standard is pretty good, as the tools mean that there aren't really any excuses to delivering "demo-quality" content any more, event with very small budgets...

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