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Re: Moog model D reissue

Posted: Wed Jun 01, 2016 10:12 pm
by cornutt
So one thing that's frustrating to me whenever these discussions come up, is that there isn't any single "Model D design". For instance, if I recall, there were three major revisions of the VCO boards that used very different expo converter circuits. Yet, in discussions like this, they are all treated the same.

I'll be honest and say that some of it comes across to me as sheer nostalgia, or fetishizing. Now, experience is subjective, so if playing one does it for you, that's great and I won't argue. But don't try to convince me that it's objectively better solely on that basis.

Re: Moog model D reissue

Posted: Wed Jun 01, 2016 10:19 pm
by knolan
madtheory wrote:Can you post links to articles about these components? What exactly has changed about the manufacturing? Have the specs of the op amps and transistors been changed? Specifics please!
Here are some specifics you can try out for yourself:

1. Get a 30 cm perspex ruler

2. Measure the physical dimensions of each synthesizer. (you'll find: they are different)

3. Open up each synthesizer and look, using eyes, the physical lay out of each synthesizer's circuit boards (again, you'll find - they're not the same. Some differences: the length and breath dimensions of each board will be: "different"; the number of wires and busses will be "different"; the path distances between synthesizer sub-sections (and their associated timings, capacitances, impact on phase relationships and so forth) will be: "different"

4. Check the underlying key assembly, again with eyes. You'll see it's: different

5. Check quality of solder and soldering techniques: they will be: different

6. Check the supplier of: resistors, capacitors, diodes, transistors, op-amps, timers - you will find many, if not all are: different


For analogue electronics, every detail affects the behaviour of the circuit. Given the number of differences in the above, it is highly likely they are, as synthesizers, different

If you can't see that - get your eyes checked.


Before anyone jumps down my throat - I know Tomas - we're Irish - satire / sarcasm is in the blood - I'm expecting a pounding back from Tomas :-)

Re: Moog model D reissue

Posted: Wed Jun 01, 2016 10:52 pm
by madtheory
Thanks Chip, but just now I was referring to what he said about the Model D components and manufacture, not about the Voyager:
knolan wrote:
The one thing that has changed beyond all recognition in that time is manufacturing techniques - even of the same components.

So the differences between the two are real and identifiable. Indeed I've read that Moog have had to have parts remanufactured for the new model D that don't otherwise exist.
A change of supplier doesn't change the spec of a resistor, or any other component. That's just a bizarre thing to say. This stuff is manufactured to a specification. Otherwise, things go wrong. How does the type of keyboard in a Minimoog change the quality of sound? How does path distance change the timing of a voltage in a through hole PCB? Seriously, you're an astrophysicist! You should know that stuff, it's LC electronics. And again, what has changed since the seventies in the manufacturing of, say, a 741 op amp?
cornutt wrote:I'll be honest and say that some of it comes across to me as sheer nostalgia, or fetishizing. Now, experience is subjective, so if playing one does it for you, that's great and I won't argue. But don't try to convince me that it's objectively better solely on that basis.
I'm glad someone else sees it that way! Thank you :)
knolan wrote:If you can't see that - get your eyes checked.
Evidence of visual bias, in a discussion about sound? Hmmmm!!! :lol:

Re: Moog model D reissue

Posted: Wed Jun 01, 2016 11:25 pm
by chipaudette
madtheory wrote:How does path distance change the timing of a voltage in a through hole PCB?
In guitar amps, the path distance (ie, the length of wire / PCB trace) in a circuit does have an effect on the sound. I've experienced it first hand in my own amp modifications. Pull out a bunch of wire and you get a different sound. In my amp's case, it was a better sound, but I'm not going to say that shorter is better in general.

A guitar amp and a synth are likely different beasts with regard to wire length. Tube guitar amps have several hundred volts getting modulated, whereas synths have maybe 10V. Also, guitar amps have lots of gain whereas synths (by comparison) usually don't. Therefore, a lot of the issue in guitar amps are EMI pickup and self-oscillation, which are both reduced through shorter wires.

But, my general point is that, through this experience, I became open to the idea that wire length / trace length could be important in analog systems. Perhaps it's important in the Model D, or perhaps not.

Chip

Re: Moog model D reissue

Posted: Thu Jun 02, 2016 12:19 am
by knolan
Indeed, path lengths and differences can affect a myriad of circuit characteristics - everything from timings, to differences in timings, to impedance, to stray capacitance. I'm not talking the wacky "gold speaker cable is better than copper cable here" - I'm talking about anything from nano-second delays to pico-farad capacitance or minute impedances that instigate relevant filtering, phasing, non-linear distortion effects that affect the behaviour of all manner of audio circuits.

And that's not even considering a plethora of techniques that can be (and are likely implemented in the Voyager but not the Model D) such as voltage regulation, temperature stabalizing techniques, power management - you name it - there are probably dozens of such features in Voyager that render it more reliable than the Model D; and all impact the sound.

Hence why Horowitz & Hill is called "The Art of Electronics" and not "The Science of Electronics".


Voyager is a stunning instrument no doubt about it; but it is a very different beast to the Model D.

Re: Moog model D reissue

Posted: Thu Jun 02, 2016 1:20 am
by chipaudette
knolan wrote: Hence why Horowitz & Hill is called "The Art of Electronics" and not "The Science of Electronics".
Ah, Horowitz & Hill. <sigh> I myself haven't laid eyes on the new version...the one that I've got dates back to the mid 90s...my first electronics class. Memory lane.

Back on the issue of the Voyager...in the photos I see that the Voyager uses LM13700 OTAs. A very sensible and classic decision. Was this IC used in any of the 1970's Model D variants? I have no issue with it either way...just wondering how quickly the Model D was revised to take advantage of then-new ICs...

Re: Moog model D reissue

Posted: Thu Jun 02, 2016 2:20 am
by ninja6485
knolan wrote:And that's not even considering a plethora of techniques that can be (and are likely implemented in the Voyager but not the Model D) such as voltage regulation, temperature stabalizing techniques, power management - you name it - there are probably dozens of such features in Voyager that render it more reliable than the Model D; and all impact the sound.
So my question is, are any of these things going to be used on the reissue? And if so, how will this affect the sound? Will it be closer to a voyager if they are in place (provided they do in fact affect the sound, and are a notable difference between the two)?

Always liked the voyager. I want a white one with electric green/ yellow lights! 8-) Minomoog reissue is very tempting however...

Re: Moog model D reissue

Posted: Thu Jun 02, 2016 7:36 am
by blueknob
This thread reads really stupid, like a bunch of schoolboys arguing over who has got the best widget "mine is better than yours" - "I know more than you" -"I know what a 741 and a 555 is so beat that".

Re: Moog model D reissue

Posted: Thu Jun 02, 2016 8:08 am
by madtheory
Kevin, it's old and new Minmoog manufacture that I'm pulling you up on now. You still haven't answered the component question. All of your "evidence" so far is anecdotal, by the way.

Re: Moog model D reissue

Posted: Thu Jun 02, 2016 11:04 am
by Hybrid88
Oh God, what have I started... Madtheory, relax for a minute, I made a by-comment on electronics as an idea, if that was a wrong assumption that's fine but no need to go on about it. I do have some experience in electronics which is why I mentioned it as a theory so don't feel the need to go out of your way to make an issue of my personal knowledge. I don't doubt there are bigger geeks than me out there on the topic :lol:

They are different, simple, you can't deny that. The point is whether it makes a difference to you, and *that* is what we are really talking about here (whatever you may admit). Ultimately it's something that will be different from person to person. I'd be happy to just agree on that and move on from this discussion. I prefer the Model D, you like the Voyager, great, that's why they both exist! ;)

Re: Moog model D reissue

Posted: Thu Jun 02, 2016 11:15 am
by madtheory
It wasn't just you- I quoted 4 different assumptions from 4 different people. At least cornutt gets the bias thing. So when you guys are disposing of the Voyager you replaced with a Minimoog I will happily take it off your hands :)

Re: Moog model D reissue

Posted: Thu Jun 02, 2016 11:39 am
by Bitexion
Can you guys, even if you know eachother, please not use "real names", refer to the forum names when you post here?
Makes it alot easier for the rest of us to follow when it's not adressed to Kevin or Tomas.

Re: Moog model D reissue

Posted: Thu Jun 02, 2016 3:36 pm
by Hybrid88
madtheory wrote:It wasn't just you- I quoted 4 different assumptions from 4 different people. At least cornutt gets the bias thing. So when you guys are disposing of the Voyager you replaced with a Minimoog I will happily take it off your hands :)
That's great you love the Voyager, I love my Model D. Horses for courses :)

Re: Moog model D reissue

Posted: Thu Jun 02, 2016 5:25 pm
by Sir Ruff
ninja6485 wrote:
knolan wrote:And that's not even considering a plethora of techniques that can be (and are likely implemented in the Voyager but not the Model D) such as voltage regulation, temperature stabalizing techniques, power management - you name it - there are probably dozens of such features in Voyager that render it more reliable than the Model D; and all impact the sound.
So my question is, are any of these things going to be used on the reissue? And if so, how will this affect the sound? Will it be closer to a voyager if they are in place (provided they do in fact affect the sound, and are a notable difference between the two)?

Always liked the voyager. I want a white one with electric green/ yellow lights! 8-) Minomoog reissue is very tempting however...
I think the answer is a very firm "no". They are doing this 1:1 to the original--getting original transistors remade to spec, copying all aspect of circuit boards, leaving unused component slots on the board (for the older keyboard) still intact. I think this is going to be the clone to beat all "clones". From what i can tell, you are buying an original minimoog, no concessions made. The added midi and LFO are purely icing on the cake.

Re: Moog model D reissue

Posted: Thu Jun 02, 2016 6:02 pm
by sam
i would think is sounds tight and new...i wasnt around to hear a brand new mini in a shop but from what i hear with my own new analogs is more precision ect..which isnt a bad thing.
however i repair vintage synths and i fix many minimoogs which all sound a little different but in the end what ever mini you get sounds great.
all of the synths after 30 years will have varying ageing components and this is usually the difference people refere to in these discussions.
i hope it sounds great like its older brothers.....and not like the voyager which i have played but left me a bit dissapointed....didnt have the magic or power of a real mini.
and i wanted to like it......