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Re: Moog model D reissue

Posted: Thu Jun 02, 2016 6:55 pm
by knolan
madtheory wrote:Kevin, it's old and new Minmoog manufacture that I'm pulling you up on now. You still haven't answered the component question. All of your "evidence" so far is anecdotal, by the way.
I've got a solution that will satisfy you "madtheory":

It's called "The Voyager In The Box Paradox":


Place a Voyager in a box. Close the lid. And that's it - it sounds both like and Model-D and not like a Model-D. Everyone is happy :-)

BUT DON'T OPEN THE BOX !!!!!!

(not even MIDI remote control is allowed above 0 Kelvin !!)

Re: Moog model D reissue

Posted: Thu Jun 02, 2016 7:37 pm
by pflosi
Schrödinger's Moog :thumbright:

Re: Moog model D reissue

Posted: Thu Jun 02, 2016 7:44 pm
by Bitexion
Knolan, just put a note on the box saying it contains a time capsule and cannot be opened until 2036. Noone will dare to open the box then.

Re: Moog model D reissue

Posted: Fri Jun 03, 2016 10:51 am
by madtheory
Image

Re: Moog model D reissue

Posted: Fri Jun 03, 2016 12:04 pm
by madtheory
BTW folks, "path length" is a non-issue in a Moog, seeing as everything is low frequency i.e. not in MHz range. What it is though, is a very good example of pseudoscience. For example "I heard it, so you must believe me when I say it" instead of "here is some evidence/test that you can try for yourself".

Re: Moog model D reissue

Posted: Fri Jun 03, 2016 12:08 pm
by chipaudette
madtheory wrote:Image
Good to see that Moog's new marketing materials have been finished.

Re: Moog model D reissue

Posted: Fri Jun 03, 2016 12:12 pm
by Bitexion
They have finally hit the mark with the elderly. Cats, Moogs and Space.

Re: Moog model D reissue

Posted: Fri Jun 03, 2016 12:20 pm
by madtheory
If you don't already know it, do yourself a favour for LOLcats:
https://www.facebook.com/catsonsynthesi ... e/?fref=ts
Just noticed the cover photo is a Crumar Bit One under a cat. Now there's a cool sounding synth with some f**k up electronics!

Re: Moog model D reissue

Posted: Fri Jun 03, 2016 12:40 pm
by Bitexion
I played with a Crumar Bit-99 in a store once, it just sounded like your standard Juno to me. Kinda boring.

And that facebook page will have me occupied the rest of the weekend. Thank you. :lol:

Re: Moog model D reissue

Posted: Fri Jun 03, 2016 1:17 pm
by madtheory
You're welcome. There are T-Shirts :)

I had a Bit for a good while, ya it is quite Juno-esque but it kills it for bass and percussive stuff, very hard cutting sound, and it can do much grittier pads as well as soft PPGish ones. The oscillators do a weird but nice randomly going out of phase thing. Unison mode is actually useable unlike a standard Juno. But they're not very well made, and there is no service manual just a schematic. Mine had a dead voice, so in unison it would randomly drop a note- worked great for arpeggio type stuff.

Re: Moog model D reissue

Posted: Fri Jun 03, 2016 3:13 pm
by ninja6485
So if a moog plays in a forest and no one's around to hear it, does it make a sound? 1







1. And is that sound clearly distinguishable from the sound of an original model D?

Re: Moog model D reissue

Posted: Fri Jun 03, 2016 11:09 pm
by ppg_wavecomputer
Bitexion wrote:They have finally hit the mark with the elderly. Cats, Moogs and Space.
Where are the pony-tails?

And goatees.

Stephen

Re: Moog model D reissue

Posted: Sat Jun 04, 2016 9:47 am
by knolan
madtheory wrote:BTW folks, "path length" is a non-issue in a Moog, seeing as everything is low frequency i.e. not in MHz range. What it is though, is a very good example of pseudoscience. For example "I heard it, so you must believe me when I say it" instead of "here is some evidence/test that you can try for yourself".
madtheory - I recommend you go and read about analogue electronics. What I'm telling you is important in audio design. You do not need to be in the Mega Hertz range for these effects to be noticed - because (as just one reason why) - they have an impact on "Phase" - and if you know anything about electronics - you realise that Phase is everything. It is well known, for example that the management of phase is among THE issues in designing analogue desk signal paths, addressed though management of all of the issues I raise (an some). As one example - SSL desks are well known to be horrendous at handling phase in a consistent way, despite their otherwise reputation, for example, for all the reasons I previously cited.

You're surmising from basic principles only - as in - speed of electromagnetic wave transmission issues can be only noticeable on MegaHertz range and higher over meter length ranges. Not true.

As you know I respect you judgement - but here, for whatever reason, you've got a blinkered view. All of the reasons that I've give you as to why the Voyager must be different to the Minimoog are real - and - not even surprising. In essence - everything in it is different - why would anyone ever surmise they are the same? I don't get where you're coming from.

Every nuance in analogue electronics has impact on the behaviour of the circuit - and we're talking different circuit designs, more circuits, 40 year difference in, well, everything in the Voyager. If you want to go on believing that they are the same go ahead, but you're deluding your self. Even your proposal that we can't know unless we do a blind A-B test is nonsense - yes such a test would be useful - but the lack of an A-B blind test does not render the situation unresolvable or unresolved. There are dozens of demos out there that already demonstrate the difference, clearly.

Why you want them to be the same is obviously your beef - but don't start throwing "pseudo-science" arguments around when you're not even aware of analogue electronics and the myriad of complex issues involved in dealing with audio.

Re: Moog model D reissue

Posted: Sat Jun 04, 2016 10:52 am
by madtheory
Please don't obfuscate and confuse phase with path length, get the context right. Of course phase is an issue at AF! But path length is not. Show me one reliable reference to back up your assertion. Until then, what you're saying anecdotal. Post a link to these demos you keep mentioning. Stop repeating and provide some proof.

To counter- you mentioned earlier how great the Arturia and Monark models are. Those are great because the art of electronics is all about measurement and fact. There's no mystery although there is, as with all science, a margin of error. Very small in this case! All the factors are well known, which is how they can be modelled accurately. Bob Moog was no fool. In a blind test the Voyager can make every sound the D can. You're confusing that with the user interface and its effect in the perception of the sound. And also making assumptions about how the memory and control circuitry affects the audio path.

Re: Moog model D reissue

Posted: Sat Jun 04, 2016 10:57 am
by knolan
I 'll conclude with these three points:

1. whenever you hear the phrase (that has been attributed to the Minimoog) "not two minimoogs sound the same" - what do YOU think is in this statement

2. Does a Yamaha CS40M sound the same as a Minimoog - and if not - why is that?


3. Have you given though to the notion that perhaps your ear is not good enough to hear the differences? I'm serious. I have a horrendously bad sense of smell ( I couldn't smell an ammonia experiment being run by some post grads once who asked could they set off such an experiment at the back of one of my 1st year physics labs a few years back - and my 1st years had to tell me of the pungent smell!!). Ever since then I've realised how different indiviual senses can be - and - if you can't hear the differences - perhaps thats why you're so adamant on this point? Otherwise, it totally perplexes me how you could argue that two entities, that differ entirely in every single component, could be the same! Perhaps you just don't hear the differences??

You're stance is VERY like the Moon Landing conspiracy theorists - by the way - a kind of ridiculously over the top kind of argument to support a point along the lines of - unless you can physically put me in a minimoog and a voyager and show me the differences I just wont believe it. And I'm not saying that to spark you off. It really does come across that way to me. your stance just doesn't even make sense!

To me, honestly, you're revealing a basic level understanding of electronics. There's nothing more I can add to this if you don't understand the points been presented.