Moog model D reissue

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Re: Moog model D reissue

Post by madtheory » Sat Jun 04, 2016 11:28 am

Eugh, straw men.

So I take it you can't provide a reference for your spurious claim about path length at AF? Or your claim about changes in component manufacturing?

Help me out here. I looked in the book you mentioned earlier "The Art of electronics" by Horowitz, and there's no mention of path length at AF, although there is a chapter on transmission lines- but of course that's HF (electronic engineering HF, not audio HF). He never says much about component manufacturing. If you know of a good reference for that, please let me know. Douglas Self has a good chapter on it in "Small Signal Audio design" but it's mostly about conductors, nothing about ICs.

Incidentally, I'm just wondering what a repair shop has to do when an IC in an original Minimoog needs replacing. Do they go looking for a NOS IC made in the seventies, or do they have to compromise and buy a new one? Does the owner then dispose of the Moog because it is no longer the same?

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Re: Moog model D reissue

Post by Dr. Phibes » Sun Jun 05, 2016 11:54 am

What was the general consensus vis-a-vis the system 55 reissue? They were supposedly faithful to the design of the originals.

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Re: Moog model D reissue

Post by Hybrid88 » Sun Jun 05, 2016 4:44 pm

Well I didn't hear anyone complain about them for a change so must have been good, mind you they were basically one off hand made items and super close to the real deal :)

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Re: Moog model D reissue

Post by ppg_wavecomputer » Sun Jun 05, 2016 5:58 pm

Dr. Phibes wrote:What was the general consensus vis-a-vis the system 55 reissue? They were supposedly faithful to the design of the originals.
Hardly anybody owns a new System 55, let alone an original one.

Chances are nil that anybody will ever be able to compare them side-by-side, hence there is no slagging off of either of them.

That's clever marketing.

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Re: Moog model D reissue

Post by ninja6485 » Sun Jun 05, 2016 7:41 pm

knolan wrote:You're stance is VERY like the Moon Landing conspiracy theorists - by the way - a kind of ridiculously over the top kind of argument to support a point along the lines of - unless you can physically put me in a minimoog and a voyager and show me the differences I just wont believe it. And I'm not saying that to spark you off. It really does come across that way to me. your stance just doesn't even make sense!
weak analogy.
knolan wrote:Have you given though to the notion that perhaps your ear is not good enough to hear the differences? I'm serious.
Everyone's senses are not good enough to hear the difference. When you hear a particular sound, you don't process all of the data that you're hearing.

Your senses take in more data than what your brain is able to process into what you experience as the sensation. Your brain economizes processing this sense data. The data from your other senses as well as memory, and possibly other criteria all play a roll in determining which parts of the sense data you take in become part of the experience. In fact, the association with your other senses builds a memory of the experience which is used to economize perception. So when you sit down at your minimoog, you're already queueing up memory associations that will economize the process of experiencing the sound, and much of what you hear(the info that gets to your brain and makes the experience) is simply your brain referencing the data it's stored in the past. Since the amount of sense data always overflows what your brain is capable of processing, two people can take in completely different aspects of the same sounds, and discard completely different aspects of the same sound at the same time, resulting in two distinct experiences of the same sound. If we're talking about something as subtle as the voyager vs. the mini, this process may entail that given the instruments side by side, one may perceive them as being very different. But in a blind A/B test, the two may be indistinguishable. the test is also not as reliable as it seems, in that the sounds will share the context of their accompanying sense data, so there is a possibility that more of the sounds similarities will be detected than their differences if your brain tries to economize them as a single experience.

the conclusions that follow from this are quite clear. Each person's experience of the minimoog will be distinct. Two people can see the same qualities in the same sound, but they may also see different qualities with no contraction with the nature of the original sound. The same sound can be heard differently depending on the associations with accompanying sense data. as the accompanying data/ context changes, the perception can change as well as one sees new information that wasn't originally part of the experience, or jettisons some data that was originally part of the experience. These phenomenon can occur with no contradiction to what is included in the actual sound.

There's a Buddhist proverb about blind men, each touching a different part of an elephant, and arguing about what the elephant is like. The point of the proverb is that these men are idiots. To understand the nature of how one perceives sound in the first place, is to understand how this argument is like that of the idiots. 8-)
This looks like a psychotropic reaction. No wonder it's so popular...

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Re: Moog model D reissue

Post by HideawayStudio » Sun Jun 05, 2016 11:10 pm

As someone who obsessively lives, eats and breaths almost every waking moment working on vintage synths and electronics for living I'm tempted to say !!WHO CARES!! to most of this thread...

The fact is that if you like what you hear then go for it - otherwise, go use something else...

A really big chunk of how an analog sounds is not due to its design but how its calibrated and the slightest of changes can lead to audible differences - one of the reasons why no two model D's sound the same.

I absolutely adore my model D.. it's something I've been very proud to own for many years now and its seen a lot of use in my sound design but if I had to add my tuppence to this thread its that the biggest mistake Moog have made is calling this thing a Model D... they should have called it the Model E!!

..and you know something - I'm pretty sure Bob would have agreed.

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Re: Moog model D reissue

Post by madtheory » Sun Jun 05, 2016 11:56 pm

ninja that is a wonderful description of perception :) :)

Hideaway, with you on that. Now I'm back to Monark and the annoying ADR envelopes :) :)

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Re: Moog model D reissue

Post by Dr. Phibes » Mon Jun 06, 2016 12:15 am

ninja6485 wrote:
knolan wrote: There's a Buddhist proverb about blind men, each touching a different part of an elephant, and arguing about what the elephant is like.
lol, touching its nob.

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Re: Moog model D reissue

Post by ninja6485 » Mon Jun 06, 2016 12:54 am

Dr. Phibes wrote:
ninja6485 wrote:
knolan wrote: There's a Buddhist proverb about blind men, each touching a different part of an elephant, and arguing about what the elephant is like.
lol, touching its nob.
:lol: :lol: :lol: Exactly dr!

...Although knolan might not want to be misquoted there. The elephants quote was me :)
This looks like a psychotropic reaction. No wonder it's so popular...

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Re: Moog model D reissue

Post by Bitexion » Mon Jun 06, 2016 7:32 am

What happened to model A, B and C? Do they sound "better" because they are even older? :P

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Re: Moog model D reissue

Post by Hybrid88 » Mon Jun 06, 2016 10:29 am

Well that depends how out of tune you like your synths :lol:

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Re: Moog model D reissue

Post by Yekuku » Mon Jun 06, 2016 10:59 pm

Some interesting information in here :
It is all about sharing...

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Re: Moog model D reissue

Post by Bitexion » Tue Jun 07, 2016 6:53 am

OH NO A DIGITAL COMPONENT *cry cry whine whine*

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Re: Moog model D reissue

Post by madtheory » Tue Jun 07, 2016 3:33 pm

Bitexion wrote:OH NO A DIGITAL COMPONENT *cry cry whine whine*
Ovbs it's COMPLETELY DIFFFERENT now :lol:

Ooh, how about this: a fully patchable MiniMoog recreation in Eurorack format, including the early LM3046 IC oscillator of which apparently only 300 were produced, and most of those were upgraded in the field to the CA3046 design. Obviously it's COMPLETELY DIFFERENT because it's SMT not through hole and doesn't even have a keyboard :lol:! Very cool AB comparison as well (which I've been told is impossible to do :lol: ).

Some cool insights into the design process in this thread including how the LM was made more stable. Choices, choices choices... :D

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Re: Moog model D reissue

Post by Bitexion » Tue Jun 07, 2016 3:42 pm

Would be cool to just build a Minimoog into my modular system.

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