Short rant: Rosen Sound in LA (106 voice fix)

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Short rant: Rosen Sound in LA (106 voice fix)

Post by Alex E » Fri Jun 03, 2016 5:29 am

So I got another Juno-106 project in April. It needed some voice chips stripped and socketed, but I decided to go with these guys instead of the Synth Spa because they're so nearby:

http://www.ebay.com/usr/rosensound?_trk ... 7675.l2559

This was on May 2. The auction clearly says they'll work on your board within 3 days, so I figured that'd be perfect since the Synth Spa would take longer than that. They also said they would email you instructions on how to remove it (I already did), and where to send it. A couple days go by without any sort of email coming my way, so I call them to confirm the proper address. They said they took in six boards from that auction so that's why I didn't hear from them. Cool, that's fine. No worries, guys.

"We are ready and staffed for the load of Juno boards we receive! If you're still deciding between us and the "other guy", simply do a quick google search of the other guys company!"

Awesome! This should take no time at all, yeah?

I shipped out my board on May 4, and it got there on May 5. It's literally a one hour drive away so overnight shipping isn't a problem at all.

About a week later I hadn't heard from them, but I figured they could be almost done with it. (Well, they should have been if they can fix it within 3 days.) I send an eBay message their way asking about the status of my order, and I don't hear back. I figure they're busy, so I wait another week. I send another message a week later, still nothing.

Three weeks go by and I send an actual email asking what's up, and how nobody has replied to my other messages. Nothing. :/

Finally, a few days ago I call them up and tell them my name, and ask what's up, and they're like "Oh yeah we got your emails, we're sending them out Wednesday". And that was it... I don't know if it was me, but he sounded slightly irritated that I'd even call.

It's Thursday and I still haven't heard anything from them. If they really sent it out Wednesday, it'd probably be here by now.

What do I even do at this point? I fixed another Juno 106 last year and The Synth Spa got that done within a couple weeks, and communication was pretty good. Actually, any other tech I've ever worked with has been better.

I totally understand that maybe they're a bit backlogged on orders and other projects right now, but ignoring three emails and not holding up your end of the deal on EBAY of all things is kinda unprofessional. Am I being unreasonable here?
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Re: Short rant: Rosen Sound in LA (106 voice fix)

Post by blueknob » Fri Jun 03, 2016 7:26 am

I know this is an old tired phrase but.. "I feel your pain" - I get this situation all the time in the UK, people making claims of expertise only to discover, well poor quality, it make me angry and frustrated. The work I do, I take great pride in making a first class job and good comms with my clients.
There is no real way to sort of the good people from the bad until it's too late. There was "word of mouth" but I notice on websites testimonials made by invitation, in other words bogus positive comments, so who are we to believe anymore, if we ever did!

My best suggetion is, keep asking in a polite manner, keep a record of events and prepare like you are going on Judge Judy!!And for UK viewers Judge Rinder.

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Re: Short rant: Rosen Sound in LA (106 voice fix)

Post by Yekuku » Fri Jun 03, 2016 9:37 am

It looks like the acetone trick does not always work....
Good luck Alex!
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Re: Short rant: Rosen Sound in LA (106 voice fix)

Post by Hybrid88 » Fri Jun 03, 2016 10:23 am

That's par for the course in Aus, I'd say if that's your worst tech experience you've done well! :lol:

As far as I see it it's a big lesson to you, go with Synth Spa or someone you've used before and trust. Also never expect a fast turnaround to yield professional results.

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Re: Short rant: Rosen Sound in LA (106 voice fix)

Post by sam » Fri Jun 03, 2016 5:29 pm

they state 'restored, chips on the site.

the acetone trick doesnt work long term......what happens when they run out of them...?

its best to put clones in....sound great and no future messing around.
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Re: Short rant: Rosen Sound in LA (106 voice fix)

Post by madtheory » Fri Jun 03, 2016 5:57 pm

They don't specifically state how long it takes, but do use ambiguous language- for example you could also interpret "We work on your board within 3 days of receiving it" as meaning they'll START then. But it doesn't tell you how long it takes. Maybe they could be clearer about the process. Given that they can't even respond to an email in a timely manner, I doubt that'll happen.

Does the acetone dissolve some of the components? Or the solder?

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Re: Short rant: Rosen Sound in LA (106 voice fix)

Post by sam » Fri Jun 03, 2016 6:12 pm

i once tried it.....i had to soak them for 3 days...then hours getting the rest of the coating off...nasty job and the acetone fumes are not nice.....
maybe an hour to refit the chips ect.

so maybe 4 or 5 days in total.......?

maybe time spent stripping hmm restoring....chips for existing clients.
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Re: Short rant: Rosen Sound in LA (106 voice fix)

Post by analoglsd » Sat Jun 04, 2016 9:14 pm

A few months ago I was contacted by the owner of Rosen Sound. He was coming up to the Bay Area, and wanted to check out the Vintage Synthesizer Museum. Long story short, while he was there, he ended up fixing a Juno 106 chip that I had stripped and was still giving me problems, showed me how to do the audio-in/chorus mod on the 106, and took our Yamaha CS-70m back to LA with him to repair a couple issues that my tech hadn't been able to address. The CS-70m came back with the issues resolved.

From my experience, Rosen Sound has been capable and trustworthy. Hopefully, they get the communication issues worked out with you.

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Re: Short rant: Rosen Sound in LA (106 voice fix)

Post by Alex E » Tue Jun 07, 2016 12:58 am

analoglsd wrote:A few months ago I was contacted by the owner of Rosen Sound. He was coming up to the Bay Area, and wanted to check out the Vintage Synthesizer Museum. Long story short, while he was there, he ended up fixing a Juno 106 chip that I had stripped and was still giving me problems, showed me how to do the audio-in/chorus mod on the 106, and took our Yamaha CS-70m back to LA with him to repair a couple issues that my tech hadn't been able to address. The CS-70m came back with the issues resolved.

From my experience, Rosen Sound has been capable and trustworthy. Hopefully, they get the communication issues worked out with you.
That's reassuring... At least they'll probably be thorough. I still haven't heard back from anyone, but I guess I'll wait a couple more weeks before trying again. :/
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Re: Short rant: Rosen Sound in LA (106 voice fix)

Post by elsongs » Tue Jun 07, 2016 6:44 am

If you're in/near Southern CA, take it to LA Synth Co (aka Boomer). I had him desolder all my 80017a chips for $40 and he got it done the same day. Boomer also used to be a Roland employee so he knows the gear.

http://lasynthco.com/

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Re: Short rant: Rosen Sound in LA (106 voice fix)

Post by Alex E » Wed Jun 08, 2016 1:19 am

Yay! So I just got an email saying it's gonna be shipped out ASAP. :)
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Re: Short rant: Rosen Sound in LA (106 voice fix)

Post by Rob @ Rosen Inc » Wed Aug 03, 2016 11:11 am

Eesh! We're just glad this ended up resolved. Time, backlog and expansion is the catalyst behind our turn around short comings. Alex, by all means, we truly wish it could've been done in the expected time. We're fortunate and thankful to have a growing team, growing business, and a growing backlog (it's a long one).

We've updated the wording on the eBay listing. We're looking to grow our online potential and we're glad there's a demand for remote synthesizer service. We hope as our team grows, so will our remote capabilities.

There's not much words can do to rectify this situation. To show my apology, I humbly invite you Alex to come up to the shop if you're in LA with your Juno. There's some upgrades I'd love to throw in for you.

Best regards,
Rob
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Re: Short rant: Rosen Sound in LA (106 voice fix)

Post by sam » Wed Aug 03, 2016 7:37 pm

Hey Rob......what's the failure rate of those chips...do you have any statistics on this...?

I have a vested interest....I have over 100 now.

As you might have read I am not a believer in the acetone trick....make me a convert... :D
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Re: Short rant: Rosen Sound in LA (106 voice fix)

Post by Rob @ Rosen Inc » Thu Aug 04, 2016 2:44 am

Sam,
There's an important thing to recognize here before I delve deep into this... chips fail. Through hole chips fail, SMD fails... Everything. Capacitors, resistors, opamps, 3340's... No matter what it is, it can and inevitably WILL fail. Same goes for the chips contained on the 80017A chips. Same goes for the new analogue renaissance chips. Eventually, the OTA's etc on that module will fail.

With that out of the way, the question is does the acetone work, and is it worth the money.... yeah, it does and it is.

That assumes you know what you're doing and you don't believe in snake oil. Snake oil here being that a paint stripping chemical magically fixes IC chips.

We have a special test bed we've made for the 80017A sub module (because that's what it is... it just has 3 surface mount chips on it with laser etched passive components....). After we soak the chip and remove the coating, we have to then actually repair the chip (this is where are service differs from others). We use a real surface mount rework bed with a custom mount to keep the chips level. That lets us reflow the whole chip without fear of damage. I don't recommend trying this yourself with a toaster or hot air. You'll make a mess.

Back to the test bed now... the test bed tells us if the chip is good or not, and in the case of failure, which of the 3 chips has failed. If the chip passes, it goes back into the Juno (this is the usual). The bed has controls for all the CV's and we just use a function generator to pass signal through it. Even has a cool light to show us if the volume of the BA662's on it are appropriate (also a failure point).

If a chip is bad, we take out all of the chips and put them in drawers. We throw away the bad ones, of course. Generally, this gives us a huge amount of leverage to repairing any chip ever. We once bought about 10 NOS 80017a modules and dissected them. With the seed chips from that, all 80017A's can live again without "stealing from the next guy" as I believe some shops might do. Usually its a BA662 that dies if it dies.

Now to actually answer your questions:
I'd say 1 in every 30 80017A's needs one IC changed
I believe those who say "acetone didn't work for me" probably likely don't have the same tools and test equipment.
For close to $300 a set and a (often) long wait, the AR chips are great.
For $150, you can keep it original (not saying that to knock AR). If it one chip fails down the line, guess what, they're socketed, buy the AR chips, sell the good ones on ebay... they're worth about the same price.
Sockets for the chips are another controversy, not getting into that now.

I'd be happy to answer anything else you'd like to know.

Best,
Rob
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Re: Short rant: Rosen Sound in LA (106 voice fix)

Post by Alex E » Thu Aug 04, 2016 2:59 am

Rob @ Rosen Inc wrote:Eesh! We're just glad this ended up resolved. Time, backlog and expansion is the catalyst behind our turn around short comings. Alex, by all means, we truly wish it could've been done in the expected time. We're fortunate and thankful to have a growing team, growing business, and a growing backlog (it's a long one).

We've updated the wording on the eBay listing. We're looking to grow our online potential and we're glad there's a demand for remote synthesizer service. We hope as our team grows, so will our remote capabilities.

There's not much words can do to rectify this situation. To show my apology, I humbly invite you Alex to come up to the shop if you're in LA with your Juno. There's some upgrades I'd love to throw in for you.

Best regards,
Rob
Thanks man! I got it shortly after you guys shipped it out last week. Everything works great, still worth the wait! If I'm ever near the Burbank area again soon I'd be happy to stop by. :) Cheers.
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